Quality of the new T2 mixing tools?

[asha]

Lunch Money: Do you find the new compressors better sounding/easier to tweak than the old ones?

[Lunch Money]

The new comps are easier to use, since they feature the traditional knobs we're all used to, have no extra "nodes", and have visual feedback for your tweaks.

However, their very simplicity also makes it less likely you'll get the same results. While the extra complexity of the original comps may seem like a drawback to some, it allows the user to create a transparency unavailable in the mini comp. The mini comp, when pushed, will always be a bit 'coloured', though I like the smooth character it imparts! I quite like it, actually. I prefer it to so-called "transparency".

With as close to identical settings as I could get, though, I didn't notice a big difference in the sound. I wouldn't be surprised if they share the same code base, actually, though I don't know for sure.

In summary: the new ones are 'easier', but are also more prone to produce a noticeable 'smooth' sound, which I personally like but not everyone will.

Funny, my post seems to be implying they're not as good, but in practice I have to say that I seem to be going to the new ones more than the old ones.

Greg

[pdxindy]

I personally know, pdxindy, that you're exhaustingly petulant and that some of the information you're spreading continues to be false.

That's pretty much enough for me, since I don't get paid by Mackie to fight their battles for them.

Again, though, in case somebody else is reading this thread: Mackie DID and CONTINUES at all stages to tell the download customers their options. To claim otherwise is simply false.

From the Mackie website, when you select the option to upgrade the downloadable version:

Online purchase -- $20 USD with a valid credit card. This license will allow you to unlock the full version of Tracktion 2. Note: This license includes only the plug-ins that are available in the Tracktion 2 demo. (The Tracktion 2 plug-in bundle by IK Multimedia, LinPlug and more is ONLY available with the retail boxed version of T2.)

If the demo version includes these new plug-ins, I'll happy issue a public apology and send as many e-mails on your behalf to Mackie, asking them to not lie.

[edit: this is the first thing you see upon choosing to upgrade. In addition, it WAS discussed here in great detail and unless I'm remembering falsely, you were around for those discussions. I don't know for sure, so you can certainly correct me if you weren't an active RMS forum member around the time of T2's release.]

Greg

exhaustingly petulant... interesting...

I understand that no third party plug-ins are included. That was clear.

Neither the boxed version user, nor the download user can expect something further for free than what is included at initial purchase (besides bug fixes). That is a given. That is not in question.

I am asking what mackie gains by withholding free plug-ins from download users. Why give free plug-ins to some users and not all of them? What is the reason?

I have $100 paid to Mackie for Tracktion 2. If they feel like they did not receive adequate compensation at the prices they set for me to be considered a full Tracktion user, then they can charge me something to download the new plug-ins. I (and others) said I would pay it, though it would be my guess that if you subtract the royalties to third party developers, box/cd/shipping/distribution costs etc, that I have put as many dollars into Mackie's pocket as a boxed buyer.

Meanwhile some people get them as a free download, and others have no option to get them at all, free or paid. Why? It is not smart business, and it makes those users feel less valued.

Mackie now, after the fact, due to complaints, is looking into it. This means they did not give much thought to download users in the first place.

Really, Mackie should make a download version of Tracktion for people who prefer that. I just upgraded Photoshop to CS2. Adobe offered a download version. The download version of Photoshop is equal to the boxed CD version. There will be no upgrades, no set of free filters etc that will be made available to those who ordered the CD version that will be witheld from the download version.

[asha]

Thanks Lunch Money! I think I´ll wait to buy the boxed version until T3...

I like the nodes of the old ones, mostly as they open up for quite drastic gatelike effects, but sure it would be nice with the new ones too. You really can´t get enough compressors...

[pdxindy]

Regarding the plug-ins -

The reverb and a channel strip were announced back before T2 shipped, and were last said to be shipping this past June.

Here are 3 old posts inquiring about these plug-ins. In the first one, lharless specifically asks if download users will be getting them for free. Beno replied on all 3 threads. No mention that the plugs were for boxed version only and would not even be available for download version.

http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=93133

http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=95231

http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=95486

The general impression at that time is that the further mackie plug-ins announced back then would be available for all users, just as the Mackie compressors were included to all users. Mackie said nothing I remember, or could find, to counter that notion, even when asked.

Now Mackie ships plug-ins announced back at the time of T2 launch (reverb is 8 months late), but says they are only for boxed version.

This stinks

[gbles]

Before I start, I upgraded to T2 online after buying T1 a while back.

Regarding the plug-ins -
The general impression at that time is that the further mackie plug-ins announced back then would be available for all users

Specifically, where did you get this impression from? Please qoute a post. I took a look through all three posts and only saw one person ask if they were for all users. There was no reply to that question.

As Lunch already posted, I think that Mackie made it clear that the extra plugin bundle was for the boxed version only. Had you purchased the boxed version how would you feel if Mackie decided to give away some of those plugins that you had paid extra for?

Now, given how difficult it is to get the boxed version of Tracktion, I can understand some frustration when users want these plugins. Wanting them for free is unreasonable in my opinion. Making them available for online purchase seems perfectly reasonable. Remember, people paid extra for a plugin bundle and they'll be the ones who will rightly feel cheated if Mackie now decides to give away some of them. Should they be given a small refund if you now get them for free? Lastly, Mackie being the developer of them makes no difference in my opinion. I don't believe that makes them tied in to Tracktion and we should all get them. Yes, we got FinalMix for free, but that doesn't mean we get every Mackie plugin for free from that point onwards. To be honest, I always thought FinalMix was given away to keep people around while T2 was being finished up.

Anyway....

[Lunch Money]

Wow, pdxindy, none of those 3 posts further your argument at all. There's not a single line in them that makes it seem like you'd be entitled to further Mackie plug-ins.

The only person responsible for getting your nose out of joint is yourself. Interesting that you completely sidestepped the actual quote that I pulled up. It's there as clear as day.

It's not like I don't want you to have them or something silly like that. I'd LOVE for all the Tracktioneers to have these gift-wrapped and delivered! I want you to be happy and get the things you desire.

I'm only arguing because you're making it seem like an injustice has been done, when clearly none has. That's the only thing I have a problem with. And when you state opinions as fact, I'm the kind of guy to debate that, too.

Now, let's put the debate behind us and focus on one thing that hopefully still holds true for you, too-- no amount of plug-ins in the world has anything to do with what we love, which is the Tracktion core.

Greg

[pdxindy]

Before I start, I upgraded to T2 online after buying T1 a while back.

Regarding the plug-ins -
The general impression at that time is that the further mackie plug-ins announced back then would be available for all users

Specifically, where did you get this impression from? Please qoute a post. I took a look through all three posts and only saw one person ask if they were for all users. There was no reply to that question.

In those 3 posts people are talking about the plug-ins. There are other posts as well. In them, people who have boxed versions, and people who have download versions are talking about them. Nowhere are people saying, oh, I wish I could get those but I cannot. Nowhere is mackie saying anything about the issue even when specifically asked. Everyone, regardless of version is looking forward to them. The assumption that everyone will have access to them is obvious.

lharless specifically asked if they would be free, assuming obviously that they would at least be available.

They are not.

The times I have contacted Mackie, the people I have talked to have been helpful and courteous. Beno has been helpful on this forum, but Mackie marketing decisions around Tracktion have been questionable and unclear. Particularly international users have had a bum deal and in this case, there are users having to urge Mackie to take their money because Mackie gave no thought to those users interest.

Personally, I would be happy to have paid full boxed version price for a downloadable Tracktion, minus third party plug-ins, but including Mackie plug-ins with a guaranteed future downloadable upgrade path to version 2.5, 3, 4 etc.

Dealing with small developers is a more rewarding and satisfying experience. They listen more to what users actually want, while bigger companies get channeled into market-think. For a bigger sized company, Mackie should take some cues from Ableton. They do not have this ridiculous veil of secrecy like Mackie. They announce well in advance what they are working on and they answer questions about where they are going and why. Mackie approachs software, like a hardware company. They are not the same.

That said, I am planning on buying a mackie 400F firewire interface. They do make good stuff.

[chico.co.uk]

You know, i don't think any company ever changed their corporate policy based on how many posts an individual made about it on a forum.

As for "why not give plugs to existing T1 users who got the $20 upgrade?"

Magazine advertising needs to be paid for. Development needs to be paid for. Support teams need to be paid for. Bandwidth needs to be paid for. Distribution needs to be paid for. Stands at trade shows need to be paid for. etc etc etc.

What you have to remember is that Mackie took over Tracktion as a going concern from Raw Materials. So in my case, for example, I bought T1 from Jules. Not Mackie. But i could upgrade that copy to T2 for $20. How many other people are in that boat?

So in terms of what Mackie's got from many T1 users, it's $20. And for that they can afford to continue development through version 2, and on to version 3?

You have to remember that for this to continue to be a viable software product, the company selling it HAS TO MAKE MONEY ON IT. People have to be enticed to pay for it, because otherwise it's not commercially viable.

If it's not commercially viable, they stop making it. It's really that simple.

So they *need* new users, or even existing users, buying the boxed version. Not people buying a T1 licence on ebay, or in the kvr marketplace, and upgrading it for $20.

To do that, the boxed version has to be attractive. Bundling third party plugins was one way to attempt that. Offering the Mackie plugins only to boxed version users is another incentive to get people to go boxed.

The product has to generate revenue.

This is so obvious i'm amazed it needs pointing out.




.... incidentally pdxindy, if you "would be happy to have paid full boxed version price for a downloadable Tracktion, minus third party plug-ins, but including Mackie plug-ins" ..... order the box online, and throw the third party plugins away. Then you can stop worrying about it.

There's no "guaranteed future upgrade path" with software. You'll get none from anybody. Only best intentions. Nobody can predict the future.

[oxbee]

Arguments, counter-arguments, everyone having his own truth and reality. We are in a forum, no doubt.

Well, I just feel like Mackie did not right. It's just common sense, no matter what they said or not.

On one hand, they mostly gave us T2, did NFR, and did a pretty agressive marketing to spread the word.

So, I am a reasonnable guy and think 20$ was kind of joke to upgrade to a new version of a so-called professional tool.
But well. That was a gift and even 100 USD would have been acceptable for me.

It's Mackie on their own who decided to do that.
On the other hand, they did a marketing twist. I am not in their heads so I don't know why but they just tell something like : "ok, you online people, we give you all these nice plugins like FinalMix and such to have the product known and "hyped"" and now that we have a worldwide and in-shop presence, we just give priority to the users who paid the full price".

I don't know what to think. It's not what is written, it's just the way it's done.

[gbles]

now that we have a worldwide and in-shop presence, we just give priority to the users who paid the full price

I really do think you're being unfair to Mackie. I felt like we, the online upgraders, were treated very well when T2 was released. They gave us the option to upgrade instantly for a tiny fee, while also stating what the difference was between online upgrade and boxed version. I see no secrecy in that. No hidden agendas to dump us once they have boxes in stores. They showed a lot of loyalty to the exisiting user base.

I have yet to see anything posted here by Mackie, or in any of their promotional materials that would lead people to believe that we would get these plugins. If you change your approach from feeling hard done by Mackie, to requesting that they be made available for purchase, I think you'll find that the rest of the user base will be much more supportive of your views.

[pmach64]

I would imagine that Mackie sees the former T1 user base divided into two camps - hobbyists who were content with a great low-cost product, and serious users who will stay with this product going forward as it matures and are willing to pay more money for more features. I think the very low-priced online upgrade to T2 was meant as a demonstration of good faith to the former to show that their support of T1 (and Jules) was appreciated.

I was a T1 user who bought the online upgrade, saw how good the improvements were, and I was then totally willing to spend more on the boxed set to get more goodies. Now I've gotten some freebies that may have been in part funded by the money I spent on the boxed set. Seems perfectly fair to me. I've been converted to a serious user who wants to stay with this product. I think Mackie was spot-on with their aquisition of Tracktion and the subsequent marketing that I have seen.

[rpc9943]

i think you all should just relax and do what you can with what you got, if you really want more then you can upgrade at a nice price

RonC