Muton Beta 3

[fycfung]

Hey Francis,

Thanks for all the tips, Jo! I confess I have still not figured it out. I tried ASIO4ALL on yet another computer, my Inspiron 700m, both with the ASIO kX drivers for my Audigy 2 ZS Notebook and with ASIO4ALL on top of kX, no luck. And I tried it with ASIO4ALL on my on-board sound, no luck. All three of those worked OK with, say, FL Studio.

Are you sure that you're using FL Studio with ASIO?

Maybe FL Studio makes sound thru the MME or Direct Sound drivers?

Go to FL Studio Options menu -> Audio settings and be sure to choose a ASIO driver there.

Do the ASIO drivers work for all reported configurations?

ASIO4ALL doesn't seem to give me any available MIDI players when I try to create one in Mutools.

ASIO4All has nothing to do with midi players.

If you want to use midi, you have to activate midi ports via Muton's Edit menu : Midi Setup.

But again, this has nothing to do with the audio setup.

ANd when I try with a VSTi I get silence. I haven't tried with an audio clip directly. When I had ASIO4ALL and kX for the Audigy, the play button would not work for ASIO4ALL, but it did move for the kX (but gave no sound). For on-board audio, the play button moved the bar for ASIO4ALL but no sound came out.

I'm sure you know that a sequence part needs a Player (e.g. a VSTI) to make sound, right?

Simply click the part; that will display it's player in the Player Panel at the top right in the interface. If it says "No Player" then right-click the part and "Choose Player".

Regarding the click-and-release to delete...

I'll try to come up with a method to delete notes with the arrow/pencil tool only.

Hi Jo,
Thanks so much for your response. I did indeed verify that I'm using the ASIO drivers in FL6; there was only one ASIO configuration, ASIO4ALL v2, and it worked.

Regarding MIDI, what I mean is that when I got to create a new MIDI player, it gives me only "None" as an option under MIDI Port. I did the MIDI setup, and the only things I could select on the 8 available output ports were "none" and the Microsoft GS Wavetable SW Synth (and none on any of the input channels). I selected all of them to the MS synth, but still got only "None".

Hmmmmmmm...., just now, I went to check on the text of the MIDI player menu option, and when I got there, the new MIDI Player now lists the MS synth as its output port. Previously, I could not get it to come up as an option. And now it's playing some MIDI notes when I hit the Play button. Soooo, I finally got some sound! I don't know quite how to reproduce this right now yet though, I've tried different combinations of opening and closing windows but I can't seem to get the MS Synth to show up again.

Regarding the VSTi's, yes, I tried them. Nothing was coming out even whenthey were listed as active. Just now, when I got the MIDI working that one time, I tried to select a VSTi instead of the MIDI, but I was still getting the same MIDI sounds coming out when I hit play, even though the name of the VSTi is showing in the player box. (I tried switching VSTi's several times, but it didn't help.)

Note that when I type a numver in the MIDI channel box, it always gives me the number one higher.

[muzycian]

Suggestion:
After the add plug-ins process, perhaps a dialog box listing the number of plug-ins found. At the moment, the number of plug-ins found is listed at the bottom of the window and the user is required to close the window with the top-right 'x'.

A dialog box would provide a nice summary and a definite end to the process.

Rather trivial, but I think it would be an improvement.

Good suggestion.

One thought though: When you get a dialog box with ok button, then closing the log window, then you don't have a chance to scroll thru the log, if you would whish to.

[muzycian]

Bug:
Summary: When you change the Sequence Start Position of a loop, the change is not heard until the time bar is manually repositioned elsewhere and play is resumed.

Fixed in beta 4.

Also, modifying a part's Sequence Start Position is not remembered in the Undo list.

Improved in beta 4. Also for "Set Loop Length".

[muzycian]

Hi Jo,
Thanks so much for your response. I did indeed verify that I'm using the ASIO drivers in FL6; there was only one ASIO configuration, ASIO4ALL v2, and it worked.

And thus the exact same configuration doesn't work in Muton..?

Strange...

Regarding MIDI, what I mean is that when I got to create a new MIDI player, it gives me only "None" as an option under MIDI Port. I did the MIDI setup, and the only things I could select on the 8 available output ports were "none" and the Microsoft GS Wavetable SW Synth (and none on any of the input channels). I selected all of them to the MS synth, but still got only "None".

Tip: Never select the same Midi Port more than once!

Besides this, i think it's even better to not use Microsoft GS Wavetable SW Synth at all, thus setting all midi ports to "None".

The Microsoft GS Wavetable SW Synth can only make the setup more complex, so let's keep things simple for now.

Ok, this won't give you Midi Players, but in fact you seem to not have any midi ports, so...

I wonder: Is anyone else on Windows having problems with Muton's ASIO engine?

Regarding the VSTi's, yes, I tried them. Nothing was coming out even whenthey were listed as active. Just now, when I got the MIDI working that one time, I tried to select a VSTi instead of the MIDI, but I was still getting the same MIDI sounds coming out when I hit play, even though the name of the VSTi is showing in the player box. (I tried switching VSTi's several times, but it didn't help.)

Note that you must select the player for a part by right-clicking the part, not via the Player Panel.

Note that when I type a numver in the MIDI channel box, it always gives me the number one higher.

You're right. Will be corrected!

[fycfung]

Hi Jo,
Thanks so much for your response. I did indeed verify that I'm using the ASIO drivers in FL6; there was only one ASIO configuration, ASIO4ALL v2, and it worked.

And thus the exact same configuration doesn't work in Muton..?

Strange...

Regarding MIDI, what I mean is that when I got to create a new MIDI player, it gives me only "None" as an option under MIDI Port. I did the MIDI setup, and the only things I could select on the 8 available output ports were "none" and the Microsoft GS Wavetable SW Synth (and none on any of the input channels). I selected all of them to the MS synth, but still got only "None".

Tip: Never select the same Midi Port more than once!

Besides this, i think it's even better to not use Microsoft GS Wavetable SW Synth at all, thus setting all midi ports to "None".

The Microsoft GS Wavetable SW Synth can only make the setup more complex, so let's keep things simple for now.

Ok, this won't give you Midi Players, but in fact you seem to not have any midi ports, so...

I wonder: Is anyone else on Windows having problems with Muton's ASIO engine?

Regarding the VSTi's, yes, I tried them. Nothing was coming out even whenthey were listed as active. Just now, when I got the MIDI working that one time, I tried to select a VSTi instead of the MIDI, but I was still getting the same MIDI sounds coming out when I hit play, even though the name of the VSTi is showing in the player box. (I tried switching VSTi's several times, but it didn't help.)

Note that you must select the player for a part by right-clicking the part, not via the Player Panel.

Note that when I type a numver in the MIDI channel box, it always gives me the number one higher.

You're right. Will be corrected!

AHA! Yes, I did not realize that you needed to select the player for a part by right-clicking the part, not via the Player Panel. Probably should have RTFM.... But this brings to mind an out-of-the-box usability issue. Right now there doesn't seem to be any way to set the player for a part other than by right-clicking it in the main window, in particular, nothing when I'm in the piano roll itself. I find it counterintuitive (sufficiently so that I got wrapped around the axle for a whole week) that, when I am in the piano roll mode, the Player Panel in the top right (which is the only instrument display in that view) does not correspond to the instrument being played. My suggestion would be, when you click to edit a sequence part, then the Player in the top right should be switched to the player for that part, and then changes in that top right should change the instrument being played. Then, in the main window, maybe some annotation like "default player" or "player template", since it appears that it is being used for the "player for new sequences" in the main window.

Regarding MIDI, right, I only have wavetable support on my laptop (unless I use an external soundcard).

Best wishes,
Francis Fung

[muzycian]

AHA! Yes, I did not realize that you needed to select the player for a part by right-clicking the part, not via the Player Panel. Probably should have RTFM.... But this brings to mind an out-of-the-box usability issue. Right now there doesn't seem to be any way to set the player for a part other than by right-clicking it in the main window, in particular, nothing when I'm in the piano roll itself. I find it counterintuitive (sufficiently so that I got wrapped around the axle for a whole week) that, when I am in the piano roll mode, the Player Panel in the top right (which is the only instrument display in that view) does not correspond to the instrument being played. My suggestion would be, when you click to edit a sequence part, then the Player in the top right should be switched to the player for that part, and then changes in that top right should change the instrument being played. Then, in the main window, maybe some annotation like "default player" or "player template", since it appears that it is being used for the "player for new sequences" in the main window.

I accept your point that the Player system is not yet clear enough.

So this will be changed:

1> when you edit a sequence part, then the player panel will switch to the part's player
2> in the sequence editor, you can also set the part's player
3> A sequence part must always show it's player (now only when not "No Player")
4> there must be a difference between "No Player" and "Event Player"

Change 3 would have avoided your confusion i think, because you would have seen that the part has "No Player" assigned, and thus it would have been logical that it didn't make a sound.

About change 4: If a part gets assigned "Event Player", then each event in that part's sequence can have it's own player! Of course, if the events have "No Player" assigned, then you would hear nothing of that sequence part.

Do you think these changes would make it ok?

Another question: Is the ASIO-problem solved then? Was it all caused by the fuzzy player system?

[fycfung]

AHA! Yes, I did not realize that you needed to select the player for a part by right-clicking the part, not via the Player Panel. Probably should have RTFM.... But this brings to mind an out-of-the-box usability issue. Right now there doesn't seem to be any way to set the player for a part other than by right-clicking it in the main window, in particular, nothing when I'm in the piano roll itself. I find it counterintuitive (sufficiently so that I got wrapped around the axle for a whole week) that, when I am in the piano roll mode, the Player Panel in the top right (which is the only instrument display in that view) does not correspond to the instrument being played. My suggestion would be, when you click to edit a sequence part, then the Player in the top right should be switched to the player for that part, and then changes in that top right should change the instrument being played. Then, in the main window, maybe some annotation like "default player" or "player template", since it appears that it is being used for the "player for new sequences" in the main window.

I accept your point that the Player system is not yet clear enough.

So this will be changed:

1> when you edit a sequence part, then the player panel will switch to the part's player
2> in the sequence editor, you can also set the part's player
3> A sequence part must always show it's player (now only when not "No Player")
4> there must be a difference between "No Player" and "Event Player"

Change 3 would have avoided your confusion i think, because you would have seen that the part has "No Player" assigned, and thus it would have been logical that it didn't make a sound.

About change 4: If a part gets assigned "Event Player", then each event in that part's sequence can have it's own player! Of course, if the events have "No Player" assigned, then you would hear nothing of that sequence part.

Do you think these changes would make it ok?

Another question: Is the ASIO-problem solved then? Was it all caused by the fuzzy player system?

These changes sound great!

I haven't played with it much yet, but I think that yes, this appears to solve the problem that I thought might have been ASIO-related.

Thanks so much!
Best wishes,
Francis Fung

[muzycian]

OK, watch out for beta 4.

It will feature the above mentioned changes.

[fycfung]

Hi Jo!
Thanks again for being so responsive. I wanted to comment that I got ASIO 1.8 to work with my Dimension and SB Live! Value (apparently there is some bug in my version of the Creative drivers that causes ASIO >= 2.3 to crash). It looks really great now. Sorry about all my fussing about not getting it to play, but my hope is that in the end, Muton is better because of it.

I noticed one minor behavior: if I am trying to draw new notes while the piano roll is playing, and I hold down the mouse button to draw a note while the player line moves past to the next screen, then the note that is generated stretches all the way from the previous screen to the current mouse position in the new screen. I can't really think of a better behavior right now though, so....

Also, I haven't figured out if there's any facility for setting a loop in the piano roll editor. One way that seems to make sense to me is to get a roll which is as long as my segment that I painted in the composer view, and then that roll will repeat when played in the piano roll view. There's a quantity called loop length associated to the sequence, but I'm not sure what it does (and it defaults to OO, is that "infinity")? Is that the parameter that tells you, if you're "extending" a sequence part, how often to repeat it?

I should say that your quick response really puts some other companies to shame. I was kind of thinking about spending like $40 to upgrade to Sony Music Studio and I was all set to do it until I tried, in their trial, their piano roll looper and it "stuck" the first note of the measure ever time the loop repeated, and it would hang until you restarted-and-stopped the loop before it repeated. This was for like half of all the VSTi's I tried. When I contacted their customer service, after a few weeks, they emailed back saying "we're aware of the problem and will let people know when we have a fix". A search of their forums revealed that they'd been aware of it since last April, and released a new major version of their software with the bug still present!! Unbelievable.

Thanks again!

Best wishes,
Francis

[muzycian]

Hi Jo!
Thanks again for being so responsive. I wanted to comment that I got ASIO 1.8 to work with my Dimension and SB Live! Value (apparently there is some bug in my version of the Creative drivers that causes ASIO >= 2.3 to crash). It looks really great now. Sorry about all my fussing about not getting it to play, but my hope is that in the end, Muton is better because of it.

Yes, sure, thanks!

I noticed one minor behavior: if I am trying to draw new notes while the piano roll is playing, and I hold down the mouse button to draw a note while the player line moves past to the next screen, then the note that is generated stretches all the way from the previous screen to the current mouse position in the new screen. I can't really think of a better behavior right now though, so....

Ah, right, will resolve that.

Also, I haven't figured out if there's any facility for setting a loop in the piano roll editor. One way that seems to make sense to me is to get a roll which is as long as my segment that I painted in the composer view, and then that roll will repeat when played in the piano roll view.

There are 2 possible loops there:

1) The Composition Loop, which is set by dragging an area in the Time Bar. Also make sure to activate the Loop button in the Transport Panel.

2) The Sequence Loop, which is set by right-clicking a part. Or by right-clicking in the Note Editor (beta 4 and above)

There's a quantity called loop length associated to the sequence, but I'm not sure what it does (and it defaults to OO, is that "infinity")?

Yes

Is that the parameter that tells you, if you're "extending" a sequence part, how often to repeat it?

If the sequence loop is 2 bars, and the part is 4 bars, then the sequence is played 2 times

I should say that your quick response really puts some other companies to shame. I was kind of thinking about spending like $40 to upgrade to Sony Music Studio and I was all set to do it until I tried, in their trial, their piano roll looper and it "stuck" the first note of the measure ever time the loop repeated, and it would hang until you restarted-and-stopped the loop before it repeated. This was for like half of all the VSTi's I tried. When I contacted their customer service, after a few weeks, they emailed back saying "we're aware of the problem and will let people know when we have a fix". A search of their forums revealed that they'd been aware of it since last April, and released a new major version of their software with the bug still present!! Unbelievable.

Yeah, definitely a disadvantage of being a big company, it seems

Thanks again!

U 2 !

[pljones]

Jo, with the above suggested changes to the Player display, would there be any possible way to also see what player was currently assigned to live MIDI input? Or will that follow the selected part's player?

[muzycian]

The Player Panel is always showing the "focussed" player. It's that player that is used for midi input.

Now whenever a sequence part is selected, that part's player will become the focussed player.

Possibly, in the pro version, we could add a switch wether or not the focussed player should follow any selected sequence part. But i guess that's Yes most of the time.

So i'll only add that switch if there will be a clear need for it.

What do you think?

By the way: i agree with what you said about the "Event Players". Maybe it's better to not have them, will make the application easier Multiplayers indeed is on the list.

[jinnan_tonnix]

Bug in composer window where horizontal scroll bar is lost


1. Start with new session
2. Draw a sequence from bars 1 to 4
3. Click the horizontal zoom-in button (+)
4. Click it again.
5. The horizontal scroll bar disappears.

[jinnan_tonnix]

Possible bug in sequence editing:
(More noticable with non-quantized notes)

When two notes overlap, the second note is not played for its correct time. It's always played staccato.

This is noticable when drawing in notes using the mouse to a sequence of unquantized notes recorded from a midi keyboard.

[jinnan_tonnix]

I was a bit worried about loosing the tail of a massive reverb at mixdown, but as long as you remember to extend the part with blank space to allow the reverb to decay to nothing then it works great