VSTI world hate MIDI GUITAR?

[AdmiralQuality]

I know krraqk, read what I wrote!!!

And I'm sure there are mono solutions. (Hell, check out SCAMP There's the filter part right there! In fact, it does 6 channel too! ) But I'm also sure products like Guitar Rig probably have pitch followers, that make different waveforms, then you can filter them. But you want not just basic analog waveforms but sample playback, right? So then use a pitch to MIDI converter plugin, drive your favorite soft synth /sampler from it. And use an audio envelope to MIDI converter to make control change messages to drive it's filters.

(I'll probably do a product along these lines someday that automates the whole process... still, it's a shame to only be able to do it Mono without the breakout box )

As far as Poly-Ana, yes I've been posting some short demo clips on this http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic ... 05#2067505 thread. But the real demos are still to come as she's not QUITE finished yet. (Maybe even today though! She's THAT close. )

And yes, the VA synth market is saturated with BAD sounding synths. That's why I've made this one. I just happen to love analog synthesizers... maybe you prefer the sampler/wavetable kind of sounds and that's fine too. But it's exactly that kind of thing that I wouldn't like about the VG88 or any other Roland Guit-synth-in-a-box. I want to be able to play REAL analog synths, or my own or other VSTis. Hate samplers, unless maybe I'm trying to make some exact sound... like a piano or clav or Wurly... which I'd never play from guitar anyway as there's no components to their voices that would benefit from that kind of control. But an analog synth, all KINDS of things can be controlled from the guitar.. all very organically.

Also, Poly-Ana isn't an emulation of any particular classic synth. It's a new design based on vintage capabilities and sound, and (IMHO) is unique and very flexible in it's voice architecture. But again, you have to be into the analog thing to "get" it. Not everyone will. But to those who are, this is really a NEW take on it. Nobody else is doing it this way!

Cheers!

[AdmiralQuality]

Here's a project for ya!

Reproduce the Synth section on the GT6! Basically what Roland does is convert the audio to a control signal that controls an osc. It is mono - so no need to worry about the hex pickup or breaking out the audio channels. The waveforms are relatively limited...I think Sin, pulse pipe and maybe brass...that may even be more then actually there. There was nice flute simulation (didn't really sound like a flute) that was fun to play and do melody lines with!

If you could do a nice inteligent pitch shifter that would work on chords, that would be great too!

Times like these I wish I had gotten more into programming....

Dave
http://www.ambientstickist.com

Chords mess everything up. That's why the separate outputs for each string are necessary.

In fact, I think there's an MIT prof out there who has a substantial prize for the first person who can write a program that can listen to an audio piano piece, and accurately transcribe it to notation (or even MIDI would probably do.) You just CAN'T (yet) pull chords apart into their constituent notes. (Pitch shifting however can be done. Plenty of stuff out there for that!)

I do expect that will change though, in a few more years.

But yes, as I just mentioned above, I will consider doing a mono one. And if you happened to have a break out box, then you could just use 6 instances of it on 6 channels and you'd be all set!

[des]

But I'm also sure products like Guitar Rig probably have pitch followers, that make different waveforms, then you can filter them.
....
Cheers!

Actually Guitar Rig is pretty poor in that respect. There is an input follower that will allow you to have the the input transients tracked and they have a version of their Pro 53 filter in it. There is also an LFO generator, Step Sequencer and an Analog Sequencer...but no waveform generation. What I have been doing is using an overdriven signal as a source to put thru the filter and judicious amounts of delay, etc. Then modulate the filter, etc. using the lfo, etc. It does allow quite a bit of routing....they just need to work on some of the modules a bit. They could REALLY benefit froma good polyphonic pitch shifter - the one they have is not that great. Something I would really like to see them do is put in a VST module that would allow you to load in any VST processing plug you want..making it sort of like a host. Then I could use my Camel Phat & Space within it!

Analog synth sounds are great! Samples can be ok when you need them. I really like the fact that more analog style synths are adding more complex waveforms and routing - that makes a big difference. Looking forward to checking out the Poly-Ana when it becomes available.

I don't recall checking out SCAMP - I'll have to do that. Always searching for new sounds and ways to create them...

[AdmiralQuality]

Actually Guitar Rig is pretty poor in that respect. There is an input follower that will allow you to have the the input transients tracked and they have a version of their Pro 53 filter in it. There is also an LFO generator, Step Sequencer and an Analog Sequencer...but no waveform generation.

Hmmmmm... they have an octaver don't they? Can you get a totally wet signal out of it? That should give you a square wave.

Could have sworn they had some pitch tracking stuff, but I don't own it myself and it's been a while since I demoed it, so unsure. I'd like to get it, I think it made some great sounds... I'm just poor right now and not crazy about having to buy an audio interface and pedal that I don't need.

[des]

Yea they have a simulation of the Boss OC2 which is ok. It will give you 1 and 2 octaves below. On the bass side of the Stick though that is just too low. I use their TS9 model to generate a distorted waveform then process it. They do have other distortions that if you crank up the controls you will get a square wave out of them.

You can get GR2 without the controller - you just have to get Komplete 3. I don't understand why they are trying to push the controller. It's 'ok' but not great. In fact I am selling mine...I just don't need it. I use RME sound cards, Behringer ADA8000 A/D/A convertors and I have a Behringer FCB1010 and Yamaha MFC10 (absolutely LOVE this pedal - I can plug in 4 additional foot pedals in addition to the one already on the unit.)

The pitch shifter in the GT6 was not bad - you could get a pretty decent 12 string simulation from it. They also had a "string" patch that used it and it was pretty cool..

[krraqk]

I know krraqk, read what I wrote!!!

And are you sure you read me??

And I'm sure there are mono solutions. (Hell, check out url=http://www.admiralquality.com/products/SCAMP?gsynth]SCAMP[/url] There's the filter part right there! In fact, it does 6 channel too! ) But I'm also sure products like Guitar Rig probably have pitch followers, that make different waveforms, then you can filter them. But you want not just basic analog waveforms but sample playback, right? So then use a pitch to MIDI converter plugin, drive your favorite soft synth /sampler from it. And use an audio envelope to MIDI converter to make control change messages to drive it's filters.

No, I don't want sample playback an midi involved at all! And no its not a question of inserting a filter in the guitar signal.

(I'll probably do a product along these lines someday that automates the whole process... still, it's a shame to only be able to do it Mono without the breakout box )

As I have said that would be great.

As far as Poly-Ana, yes I've been posting some short demo clips on this http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic ... 05#2067505 thread. But the real demos are still to come as she's not QUITE finished yet. (Maybe even today though! She's THAT close. )

Thanks I will hear it.

... maybe you prefer the sampler/wavetable kind of sounds and that's fine too. But it's exactly that kind of thing that I wouldn't like about the VG88 or any other Roland Guit-synth-in-a-box.

No! The VG88 has not samples or midi at all! (It sounds like you have yet not understand that unit).

I want to be able to play REAL analog synths, or my own or other VSTis. Hate samplers, unless maybe I'm trying to make some exact sound... like a piano or clav or Wurly... which I'd never play from guitar anyway as there's no components to their voices that would benefit from that kind of control. But an analog synth, all KINDS of things can be controlled from the guitar.. all very organically.

I love analog synths, and love whatever thing is musical and give me an expressive musical experience.

Also, Poly-Ana isn't an emulation of any particular classic synth. It's a new design based on vintage capabilities and sound, and (IMHO) is unique and very flexible in it's voice architecture. But again, you have to be into the analog thing to "get" it. Not everyone will. But to those who are, this is really a NEW take on it. Nobody else is doing it this way!

Well I want to hear your synth, for sure! maybe I even win one

Peace

[AdmiralQuality]

No! The VG88 has not samples or midi at all! (It sounds like you have yet not understand that unit).

...

Well I want to hear your synth, for sure! maybe I even win one

Peace

Absolutely, enter the contest krraqk.

The VG-88 doesn't have samples? Then what do you think you're hearing with: (quotes from the manual, page 37)

PIPE
This Instrument produces sounds like a soft woodwind lead
instrument.

PWM (pulse-width modulation)
This Instrument represents the pulse-width modulation
(PWM) of an analog synthesizer. The pulse width of the
waveform produced by the vibrating string is varied
cyclically to create a characteristic sound

BRASS
This instrument detects the pitch of the electric guitar and
creates a synthesizer sound.

etc...

You're right, I haven't played one, but I think I understand what's going on here. They're taking canned (i.e. sampled) wavetables and playing them back to match the pitch of your guitar string.

Anyway, each of these examples and many more describe an entirely different model, so we'd have to pick just one to analyze what it's doing. Send me some sound samples if you'd like! (Preferably with a clean version of the guitar sound from a regular pickup too.) I'll try to demo one too next time I'm at the music store.

Cheers.

[krraqk]

Absolutely, enter the contest krraqk.

I have done it already, I don't?

The VG-88 doesn't have samples? Then what do you think you're hearing with: (quotes from the manual, page 37)

PIPE
This Instrument produces sounds like a soft woodwind lead
instrument.

PWM (pulse-width modulation)
This Instrument represents the pulse-width modulation
(PWM) of an analog synthesizer. The pulse width of the
waveform produced by the vibrating string is varied
cyclically to create a characteristic sound

BRASS
This instrument detects the pitch of the electric guitar and
creates a synthesizer sound.

etc...

You're right, I haven't played one, but I think I understand what's going on here. They're taking canned (i.e. sampled) wavetables and playing them back to match the pitch of your guitar string.

Anyway, each of these examples and many more describe an entirely different model, so we'd have to pick just one to analyze what it's doing. Send me some sound samples if you'd like! (Preferably with a clean version of the guitar sound from a regular pickup too.) I'll try to demo one too next time I'm at the music store.

Cheers.

I'm not hearing samples because there is not samples at all involved, its some type of modelling from the guitar signal. The sounds resemble of pipe, brass, etc. but are emulations or approximations that sound very unique, not actual samples of those instruments. Also the "guitar modelling" is very interesting and very good sounding, of course not samples here also.

If you can play/hear it, do it, I think you would be surprised about the approach it takes. The playing es totally organic and real.

To close that VG debate. Many people have been confused and are yet, about what this thing really does. Many people thing that its some GR synth (but there is not even pitch to midi conversion/no midi out) or an amp and effects modeller, and many don't realize the most important thing inside: the guitar modelling. etc. I have discussed that many times after this one.
I suggest you to play one and hear the demos and read a bit more about it, I'm sure, knowing your genuine interest about guitars/synths/etc, that you will find this interesting and inspiring for some of your good ideas and skills programming it.

pd: (not that I don't want to discuss about it, I love it!, but my english is very bad, I never studied in the school that language and its a important effort to me to write in english)

edit: forget about your request of sounds and demos. Here are plenty:
http://vg-8.com/wiki/Audio
Around the net are many more.
Also this site has many info about it (know converted to a wiki one):
http://vg-8.com/wiki/Main_Page

[AdmiralQuality]

Absolutely, enter the contest krraqk.

I have done it already, I don't?


I'm not hearing samples because there is not samples at all involved, its some type of modelling from the guitar signal. The sounds resemble of pipe, brass, etc. but are emulations or approximations that sound very unique, not actual samples of those instruments. Also the "guitar modelling" is very interesting and very good sounding, of course not samples here also.

If you can play/hear it, do it, I think you would be surprised about the approach it takes. The playing es totally organic and real.

To close that VG debate. Many people have been confused and are yet, about what this thing really does. Many people thing that its some GR synth (but there is not even pitch to midi conversion/no midi out) or an amp and effects modeller, and many don't realize the most important thing inside: the guitar modelling. etc. I have discussed that many times after this one.
I suggest you to play one and hear the demos and read a bit more about it, I'm sure, knowing your genuine interest about guitars/synths/etc, that you will find this interesting and inspiring for some of your good ideas and skills programming it.

pd: (not that I don't want to discuss about it, I love it!, but my english is very bad, I never studied in the school that language and its a important effort to me to write in english)

edit: forget about your request of sounds and demos. Here are plenty:
http://vg-8.com/wiki/Audio
Around the net are many more.
Also this site has many info about it (know converted to a wiki one):
http://vg-8.com/wiki/Main_Page

I'll take a look at that krraqk and yes, sorry, you are the first entrant in the MIDI guitar contest! (I'll be too busy for the next few weeks to even start to look at submissions, though I did throw yours in a MIDI player just to hear it. But I will get to it. )

Thanks again.

[Tony Ostinato]

i thought instead of samples it uses really basic physical modeling

[AdmiralQuality]

Whatever it uses, it tracks the guitar notes's pitch, superimposes a new waveform to replace the original (and whether that's wavetable, raw synthesis, "PM", or other probably depends on which of the many algos you choose) possibly duplicates the wave's dynamics in various ways, filters it, applies a volume envelope to it. A bit different than classic guitar-synth in that it doesn't need to chop things up into discreet note events as everything that comes out is a direct function of what's fed in. (Just guessing, but what else would it be? )

[Tony Ostinato]

maybe a good comparison would be antares kantos.

[nix808]

Hey again,
I hope one of you midi guitar afficiandos can help me out. Like I said in my original post, I'm having trouble with wrong notes and missed notes with my GR20 and GK3. Do you think an Axon or GI would track better? I really enjoy being able to play any tone with my guitar, and hope for an error free result.
Happy music making, Nix

[Sascha Franck]

Bit late to the party, didn't read all posts either, but a few things:

() Looks as if impOSCAR is indeed there to do exactly what MIDI guitarists need.

() Most synths, if loaded more than once, don't consume more CPU power per se. Yes, there's a few things that *will* consume more, such as filters, which don't care about whether there's a monophonic or polyphonic signal running through them. Also, some synths share GUI ressources when loaded more than once, some don't. But on nowadays machines this shouldn't be too much of an issue.

() Energy XT could indeed be the solution. What you'd need to do is:
- Create one synth, set it up to your likings, switch to mono mode.
- Deactivate the filter on said synth (unless you got loads of power available, then a 6x filter might be fine...).
- Create a bunch of CC faders and cable them to the most important paramters (ADSR, maybe some timbre relevant parameters, whatever).
- Clone the instrument so you got six instances, set the MIDI channels accordingly.
- Run all the instances of the synth through one filter.
- Save it as a patch and open it in whatever your favourite sequencer may be.

Now, with the CC faders you created, it'd be possible to tweak the most important synth parameters all at once for each of the instances.
Theoretically, you should even be able to send program changes to all the synths and they should all load the same patch at once (btw, thinking about it, you wouldn't even have to set them to mono mode, but of course there's the "safety factor" of mono mode when it comes to glitch notes). I've never tried this though.
Btw, I seriously wouldn't recommend using a multitimbral synth, because none of the ones I know of (apart from ImpOSCar it seems) allow for simultaneous tweaking of all loaded channels at once (ok, in Kontakt, you could do so via some clever CC mapping, but you'd still need an environment to send those CCs to it). EnergyXT should however be sort of the best solution as you can tweak multiple parameters of multiple instances of whatever synth at once.
There's a big downside though: In the scenario described above, when you'd load a patch into all the six instances, the CC faders wouldn't update themselves according to the new patch (from what I know there's no such a thing as individual parameter outputs that can be routed back from a VSTi to a fader to get you some feedback). So, to work with this method properly, you'd have to adjust all your CC parameter sliders according to patch, then resave as an Energy XT preset and then do the patch changes for the eXT instance rather than for the synth inside. This causes another issue: Patch changes will take quite a while.

Bottomline: Apart from ImpOSCar there doesn't seem to be a perfect solution, but I would in any case fool around with Energy XT for a while.

[des]

Hey again,
I hope one of you midi guitar afficiandos can help me out. Like I said in my original post, I'm having trouble with wrong notes and missed notes with my GR20 and GK3. Do you think an Axon or GI would track better? I really enjoy being able to play any tone with my guitar, and hope for an error free result.
Happy music making, Nix

Hi Nix!
A few things to check:
- Make sure that the GK pickup is installed properly as per Rolands install recommendations. It needs to be real close to the strings...I want to say something like 1.5mm but check the install paperwork.

- Check your string sensitivity and set it according to the manual. It is pretty common for people to overlook this stage but it is very important. If the gain is set too high you will get an excess of false triggers and if set to low it may not trigger at all. I think that there might also be a hysterisis (sp?)setting that needs to be done..

- Work on playing technique. This is probably the hardest part to do - MIDI guitars are not very forgiving with regards to sloppy playing. If you are trying to play parts that you have played for a while, try playing them slower and concentrate on playing them clean. Make sure you are not lightly bumping or hitting strings when changing chords, playing solos, etc..

- As I mentioned before you could try putting a mute on the guitar. A womans hair 'skrunchy' that you can roll on or off the strings at the nut might work fine. Some people will even weave a small thin piece of felt through the strings at the bridge though this will cause your sustain to drop. The hair skrunchy will only affect open strings. You could also install a piece of velcro 'loops' at the first fret (similar to what is done on Chapman Sticks).