oh one more thing, i was talking of course about vsti synths , i had only one hardware.
Yes Arksun this is what i wanted to say also in Sylenth1 forum.Thanks.
11 mode in zebra2 is quite new and still updated,so i jumped on this thread when i saw mention about changes in 11 osc mode.
Zebra 2.3 Released!
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- KVRian
- 505 posts since 27 Feb, 2007
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- KVRian
- 936 posts since 29 May, 2002 from UK
Ooooh, you know what would be REALLY cool.
If instead of additional unison modes of that behaviour, have it so that when dual/quad or 11 is active, the phase knob then controls the phase differences between the different waveforms in the unison itself!.
I have no idea what it takes to achieve the JP/Synth1/Alchemy type unison, whether the phase of each waveform stays a specific degree apart, or those degrees are constantly varying to some special pattern or sweep, but if the phase knob somehow altered the relative state of the phase positions it would completely open up a whole range of different Unison type sounds.
On the minus side, it could potentially mess up existing presets where the phase knob position wasn't already at 0, hmmm, bummer.
If instead of additional unison modes of that behaviour, have it so that when dual/quad or 11 is active, the phase knob then controls the phase differences between the different waveforms in the unison itself!.
I have no idea what it takes to achieve the JP/Synth1/Alchemy type unison, whether the phase of each waveform stays a specific degree apart, or those degrees are constantly varying to some special pattern or sweep, but if the phase knob somehow altered the relative state of the phase positions it would completely open up a whole range of different Unison type sounds.
On the minus side, it could potentially mess up existing presets where the phase knob position wasn't already at 0, hmmm, bummer.
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- KVRAF
- 4197 posts since 23 May, 2004 from Bad Vilbel, Germany
Confirmed i.e. I clearly hear the difference now, mainly in the middle...I had previously only tried low notes so I didn't notice.Arksun wrote:Third note is Zebra2. You should immediately hear whats almost like a flanging effect of the phasing between the oscillators.
I looked at the waves in SignalAnalyser (nice freeware oscilloscope program): Synth1 detune is still a bunch of sawtooths (sawteeth?), whereas Zebra2 Eleven isn't.
EDIT: Forget that last sentence - I checked again this morning, and Eleven gives me good saws! Last night I could have sworn...
Last edited by Howard on Wed Oct 22, 2008 10:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
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- KVRian
- 936 posts since 29 May, 2002 from UK
I'm pretty sure its all to do with the starting phase of each voice in the unison relative to each other over time and how that's adjusted, not the actual shape of the source saw waveform itself.
Regarding the per-unison-voice phase difference control idea, I just noticed that Audjoos implemented that very same idea into Helix (a synth I haven't tried yet)
Regarding the per-unison-voice phase difference control idea, I just noticed that Audjoos implemented that very same idea into Helix (a synth I haven't tried yet)
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- u-he
- Topic Starter
- 30194 posts since 8 Aug, 2002 from Berlin
Aha. As far as I can see, the "good" examples all have evenly spaced detune, which would be the naive approach. I.e. on saw is 2 cents off, the next is 4 cents off, teh next is 6 sents off... you catch the drift. This is easily recreated in Zebra by using 4 oscs in dual mode, detunes set to 2, 6, 10, 14 (or any similar series). The disadvantage of this approach is, you get a repetitive pattern in which at some point all sawtooths "meet". I dislike this (even more so than supersaws in general, IMHO this stuff could just die out). Arksun's first and fourth example are really horrible in that respect. One could as well use a sample loop.
My approach in Eleven is different in that all sawtooths are offset by an uneven multiple of cents, such as 1.7, 3.9, 5.04 - this prevents the whole thing from becoming repetitive at all. Unfortunately there seem to be 2 or 3 sawtooths that are still relatively close together, which you can perceive as phasing. Might be easy to fix, I don't know.
My approach in Eleven is different in that all sawtooths are offset by an uneven multiple of cents, such as 1.7, 3.9, 5.04 - this prevents the whole thing from becoming repetitive at all. Unfortunately there seem to be 2 or 3 sawtooths that are still relatively close together, which you can perceive as phasing. Might be easy to fix, I don't know.
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- KVRian
- 936 posts since 29 May, 2002 from UK
Lovely jubbleyUrs wrote: My approach in Eleven is different in that all sawtooths are offset by an uneven multiple of cents, such as 1.7, 3.9, 5.04 - this prevents the whole thing from becoming repetitive at all. Unfortunately there seem to be 2 or 3 sawtooths that are still relatively close together, which you can perceive as phasing. Might be easy to fix, I don't know.
I only tried the 11 and quad modes, didn't even think to try the dual mode with 4 osc. That does get much much closer!, jolly good. As the 11 osc is new beta mode, I'm guessing the kind of end user that would end up using 11 voices (such as tarnce-heads) would probably prefer the smoother JP style sound so maybe it would be better to alter to even multiples?
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- u-he
- Topic Starter
- 30194 posts since 8 Aug, 2002 from Berlin
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- KVRian
- 936 posts since 29 May, 2002 from UK
*has a listen*Urs wrote:So, what's your opinion on these 3 (different!) supersaws?
http://www.u-he.com/music/supersaw.mp3
?
1) This is more the typical supersaw style. Fundamental reasonating follow a slow steady pattern.
2) eek!. The edgy flanging style is back. Great for nasty unison sounds, not good for supersaw pads though. Curiously the fundamental stays at a more steady level than 1, except right at the end of that held note where it suddenly starts peaking the highest out of the 3 examples.
3) Hmm interesting, very similar to 1, except that the way the fundamental reasonates is a different less steady more random pattern, due to a different spread of phase/multiples?.
2 is more like the current 11 voice Zebra, 1 and 3 more like JP/Synth1/Alchemy/Zebra using 4 x dual evenly spread.
As for choosing between 1 and 3 for the more typical supersaw type sound, hmmm... they're fairly close, but I think I'd pick 3 just because it avoids being too obviously reasonating on the fundamental.
(ver 2 really could be great for some nasty sounds though, hmmm, choice of having both?
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- u-he
- Topic Starter
- 30194 posts since 8 Aug, 2002 from Berlin
Arksun, it's exactly as you say!
1 - Eleven tweaked to "even spaced" detune
2 - Eleven as it is now, with 2 or 3 saws together
3 - Eleven tweaked to "randomly spaced" detune without close encounters
I think I'll stick to 3. One can easily get the phasing back by adding a single oscillator and finding the right tuning. Comparing them carefully over headphones I think that 3 sounds a tad thicker. And that's what Eleven was supposed to achieve.
Urs
1 - Eleven tweaked to "even spaced" detune
2 - Eleven as it is now, with 2 or 3 saws together
3 - Eleven tweaked to "randomly spaced" detune without close encounters
I think I'll stick to 3. One can easily get the phasing back by adding a single oscillator and finding the right tuning. Comparing them carefully over headphones I think that 3 sounds a tad thicker. And that's what Eleven was supposed to achieve.
Urs-
- KVRian
- 936 posts since 29 May, 2002 from UK
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- KVRian
- 1100 posts since 4 Aug, 2004 from Copenhagen, Denmark
Pheew just gave it a listen and i'm glad you go for nr 3Urs wrote:Arksun, it's exactly as you say!
1 - Eleven tweaked to "even spaced" detune
2 - Eleven as it is now, with 2 or 3 saws together
3 - Eleven tweaked to "randomly spaced" detune without close encounters
I think I'll stick to 3. One can easily get the phasing back by adding a single oscillator and finding the right tuning. Comparing them carefully over headphones I think that 3 sounds a tad thicker. And that's what Eleven was supposed to achieve.
www.xsynth.com - Sound Synthesis with Vintage flavour
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- KVRian
- 505 posts since 27 Feb, 2007
How it sounds on chords ? could be nice on single notes but on chords could be different .
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- KVRAF
- 10815 posts since 26 Nov, 2004 from UK
