Arts Acoustic CL Series compressors- no love?

[eduardo_b]

and I gotta tell you, in 2010 version of it, you REALLY have to look hard to find some "meat" after having lost in a sea of technical terms that in NO WAY helps to understand an abstract
idea...)

What you're sort of missing is that the article is about the qualities of "analogue" sound as related to hardware, and why these qualities may or may not be reproducible with software. This isn't as much a how-to article as a why article. The one sidebar on VST effects is just that, and not the focus of the piece.

[Tp3]

What you're sort of missing is that the article is about the qualities of "analogue" sound as related to hardware, and why these qualities may or may not be reproducible with software

Right !!...













...You're absolutely WRONG !

You THINK that I look for what YOU look for. I ain't

What did YOU understand from both articles as to what is "Warmth" ? (I wont tie it to analogue, hardware or
whatnot)

I asked Hugh what has changed in the definition of warmth since 2001.

I got no answer.

I'll take it as "Nothing really. but I can't say that in public"

[JeffSanders]

Edited :: meh

[shogger]

You don't know the half of it... I was at the other side where some client came and started spitting names of
vintage analog synths... "you know Moog ?... oberheim... ? DX7 ? and VCS3 ?? ha ??" he enthused.

So I've decided to show him a little lesson. with the same enthusiasm I asked, without even blinking "You know
R2D2 ?!". and he goes "YES ! YES ! man, does it has an emulation ??". so I replied "Yes... the R2V2"... and
he goes "I'll asked my brother to look it up in eMule ! thanks, Man !"

Sad, but true

I feel ya!

Shogger

[Tp3]

Edited :: meh

Jeff

Out with it !!

[bmanic]

I once was in a shop to check out a certain synth. Went to the sales guy to talk about it a little: FAULT!!! There only came poor sales bla like "You know, it reminds me a bit about an Oberheim Xpander. And a little about the OBXa." I said "Yeah, and it reminds me a lot about the OB13." He instantly knew when to stop his stupid talk.
You don't know the half of it... I was at the other side where some client came and started spitting names of
vintage analog synths... "you know Moog ?... oberheim... ? DX7 ? and VCS3 ?? ha ??" he enthused.

So I've decided to show him a little lesson. with the same enthusiasm I asked, without even blinking "You know
R2D2 ?!". and he goes "YES ! YES ! man, does it has an emulation ??". so I replied "Yes... the R2V2"... and
he goes "I'll asked my brother to look it up in eMule ! thanks, Man !"

Sad, but true

Bwahahahah! That is brilliant!

Btw. I agree with a lot with what you said here and with what Nico said, he knows his stuff.

I do think however that it is possible for people to learn fairly quickly the differences of analogue versus digital in most processors and synthesizers. What it takes is some basic critical listening skills and this is achieved by doing ABX tests and trying to stay as objective as possible. Especially compressors and Synthesizers are something that are very hard to duplicate in digital when pushed to extremes. I mean most emulations are not even close, not even in the same ballpark (for instance feeding too much input gain in any analogue compressor that uses tubes for their output gain stage and smashing it to bits.. the emulations simply can not reproduce this, they simply do not sound even remotely the same).

Going from this and slowly backing off the settings to more conservative values one will get closer and closer to the emulation and can then start to appreciate the differences and similarities.

The harder task is to learn that "different" never means "better". To be humble enough to understand that ALL this is subjective and always will be. There are no absolutes. Only ones own opinion. There simply is no magic plugin/hardware that would make your mixes instantly transform into master pieces. There never was and there never will be (I hope or I'll run out of work!).

Cheers!
bManic

[eduardo_b]

The harder task is to learn that "different" never means "better". To be humble enough to understand that ALL this is subjective and always will be. There are no absolutes. Only ones own opinion. There simply is no magic plugin/hardware that would make your mixes instantly transform into master pieces. There never was and there never will be (I hope or I'll run out of work!).

Human nature seems to prevent some from ever accepting or even acknowledging this reality. Way too much insistence on what is best, what isn't and how things should be done. And, as always, the tools are only as good as the skills of the person using them.

[Tp3]

Way too much insistence on what is best, what isn't and how things should be done. And, as always, the tools are only as good as the skills of the person using them.

Ed.

I have told this once (and I think it was even to Niklas): It's no "magic" that people "insist on what is the
best"....

It is called : "REFERENCE POINT".

Everything is RELATIVE and to make a long story short, we NEED reference points in order to survive. in ancient
times it was LITERALLY, now days it is more metaphorically. but it STILL stands as it helps us to "find
our way in the jungle" (metaphorically. ummm...when I come to think of it - if you are talking about
plugin realm, it IS a jungle. LITERALLY ).

And, as always, the tools are only as good as the skills of the person using them.

Oh.... ok, lemme tackle you further :
How can it be that the knowledge one has can be ridiculous but he STILL manages to get a decent sound ?

It happens. I've seen a video not so long ago where a WELL KNOWN electronic producer was trying to explain
the merits of side chain compression... and he was like "does what I have just said make any sense at all ?? <giggling>"

I was like : WTF ?!

One thing is to be said with global certainty : talk is cheap, but ACTUAL LISTENING and UNDERSTANDING is
rare as a Siberian bear. the (audio) world moves at extraordinary pace. its like tatalatada... bam ! you're in 2011
and you haven't even noticed. no one has time to understand the 'why'.
"WHY is the real source of power, without it you are powerless. and this is how you come to me. without the
'Why'. without power"
(Matrix Reloaded)

I do think however that it is possible for people to learn fairly quickly the differences of analogue versus digital in most processors and synthesizers.

You (I hope..) and I should know better then this : for MANY... MANY MANY MANY (if not ALL - besides the
nitpickers) it is IRRELEVANT. it doesn't matter, it doesn't mean a thing - choose the right sentence.
I have been in contact with many "Vinatge" guys (one of them was sort of a PIONEER in his field. today
you can find a 1977 MiniMoog Burried in his closet...and he HAPPILY lives with his VSTi's... )

I have a firm stance regarding the Analog vs Digital war... and mind you : it has NOTHING to do with AUDIO

I mean most emulations are not even close, not even in the same ballpark

Lets be honest, Niklas : who really cares ? really. in ONE week you have a LETHAL "attack" where plugins upon plugin
and released. Freeware.... commercial....very cheap... very expensive... warez... you name it. they are ALL in the
same tub. and one has to burden himself with "is it close enough".... where TOMORROW will come ANOTHER plug...
"HONEST to the truth like never heard before"

Let me repeat : I-T....D-O-E-S-N-T....M-A-T-T-E-R.

What matters is only one thing : KNOWLEDGE.

Everything else is negligible

[bmanic]

I do think however that it is possible for people to learn fairly quickly the differences of analogue versus digital in most processors and synthesizers.

You (I hope..) and I should know better then this : for MANY... MANY MANY MANY (if not ALL - besides the
nitpickers) it is IRRELEVANT. it doesn't matter, it doesn't mean a thing - choose the right sentence.
I have been in contact with many "Vinatge" guys (one of them was sort of a PIONEER in his field. today
you can find a 1977 MiniMoog Burried in his closet...and he HAPPILY lives with his VSTi's... )

I have a firm stance regarding the Analog vs Digital war... and mind you : it has NOTHING to do with AUDIO

I mean most emulations are not even close, not even in the same ballpark

Lets be honest, Niklas : who really cares ? really. in ONE week you have a LETHAL "attack" where plugins upon plugin
and released. Freeware.... commercial....very cheap... very expensive... warez... you name it. they are ALL in the
same tub. and one has to burden himself with "is it close enough".... where TOMORROW will come ANOTHER plug...
"HONEST to the truth like never heard before"

Let me repeat : I-T....D-O-E-S-N-T....M-A-T-T-E-R.

What matters is only one thing : KNOWLEDGE.

Everything else is negligible

I think you are missing the point I tried to make. It's all about learning ones craft. I can hardly call me a good talented Chef if I have no idea how some rather common ingredients taste and behave in various combinations, now can I?

Not everybody is interested or waging a "war" of analogue versus digital. There are plenty of people who care about the difference from a purely curiosity driven point of view. There are people who are willing to learn the differences and enjoy the tools.

It all comes down to preference of the way one enjoys the art of music making. I get tremendous satisfaction from even rather subtle differences in various tools just because I now have more spices to play with to create my "soul food".

Cheers!
bManic

[Tp3]

I think you are missing the point I tried to make. It's all about learning ones craft.
....
Not everybody is interested or waging a "war" of analogue versus digital. There are plenty of people who care about the difference from a purely curiosity driven point of view.

OK. Me bad.

Point has been made

[brok landers]

if you want to entirely sound like analog with your daw, you have to emulate it through the whole signal chain. it's not done by just slapping an analog emulated eq/compressor on a channel.

Excellent insight. But it leads to me to the obvious question. For those who have not grown up using analogue gear, what is the basis for comparison?

that's the problem - there is none ... the only thing they could do is

a) bite the bitter apple and get through all the experience by somehow get into reach of good analog gear and work with it frequently (which is obviously on the rare side), or

b) carefully, actually very carefully trust peeps on the net who claim that they're experienced (with a bit of enthusiasm it's no problem to find out who is just a pretender and who is really experienced), as well as using the net for information and reference files, of which actually plenty are around, if you know how to use google and what to search for ...

see, i know several younger folks being interrested in analog gear just because of the hype. some of them were really dissapointed when i showed and explained the difference. for them the difference was way too tiny, which is either because

a) the emu was really better than expected
b) they don't understand that the tiny differences become obvious when summed up, they're simply not experienced enough in engineering (this happened to me too whe i was a starter)
c) they bought themselves cheap quality analog stuff (of which there are plenty of them around), where the plugins they had sounded better to them, not only from a subjective pov.

i mean, come on, i, and i assume everyone who is in this buiseness a longer period of time, did it the same way: i asked the pro's, if i was unsure. with a bit of sorting and filtering after asking (toget rid of the esotheric part as much as you can), i learned much in the first years, when i wasn't able to get me the good gear. the thing is, either you gain experience by extensiveley learning and trying out, or you listen to the pro's who do this for years. i did both, and i still, after all that time, learn, it never ends, i even learn on kvr (did i really say that!? ). in the end there's just nothing more useful to do than gaining experience, be it this or that way. only that spells the beans, so to say ...

By the way, the cover story in the new SOS is on analogue warmth. Haven't read it yet.

i've read the free part ... hmmm ... i guess i have to subscribe to (hopefully) read something i don't already know, for the free part it's way too generic (and imo rather subjective, i.e. i always hated the wow and flutter and the scrape on tapes, i was rather heading for the tamed mid and high frequency peaks, so my opinion is rather the opposite of the author in that particular writing). though that's a nice article for someone who isn't experienced but interrested in the analog realm in general, it's a nice starting point ... but it won't help that unexperienced person to actually know how it is when you actually listen to the differences ... i'd have expected some audiofile comparsions, which would say more that a million words, or at least would help to understand the article better ... maybe that comes in the not free version of the article.

BUT: one thing at least partly has been corrected, and it absoluteley needs to be spread, as everything else is kind of a missinformation:
not only the fact that a lot of key factors contribute to that certain analog perceivement, but the phase issue is most important ... it is absoluteley not true that altering the phase a certain way is to be strictly avoided, as a lot want to make us believe. actually the opposite is true. in analog there is no true phase response. even the most recent high end recording consoles are altering the phase, and even if those phase alterings are trying to be compensated by various ways, it never can be 100% corrected. and that makes the big part of the sound. i know of some hardware compressor developers i talked to about that issue, and they told me that they actually "play around" with components that introduce/compensate the phase shifting, to find a certain phase altering that they like the sound of. and they also told me, that most compressor developers in the analog hardware world are still doing so, and not only on compressors. these dev's are more after finding a sweetspot for a good sound-output of the unit, than trying to deliver an exact reproduction to transport the sound "lossless" to another stage (i'm not talking about high end monitoring gear, i'm talking about the total commiting to design something that makes "sound").

this is why i love the cl series so much: they don't try to sound "linear" or "nonecolouring" ... the opposite is true. it seems they are designed to deliver an uncompromised character, achieved by (looseley taken from the manual) "emulating the components themselfes where we felt necessary to achieve the same behaviour" and "leaving out the negative side effects of these".

and i have yet to hear any compressor that defines the attack in combination of the input drive in such a pleasant way, in this case i don't care of analog or digital, it just sounds marvellous to my ears ... but that's of course a subjective thing ...

[eduardo_b]

By the way, the cover story in the new SOS is on analogue warmth. Haven't read it yet.

i've read the free part ... hmmm ... i guess i have to subscribe to (hopefully) read something i don't already know, for the free part it's way too generic...

The author's goal seems to be to identify the various places in the chain where the components of analogue warmth can be found. Having done this, it becomes obvious that much of the desired effect is in the use of tape, and thus the effects plugs noted in the sidebar were primarily tape related.

[Tp3]

i've read the free part ... hmmm ... i guess i have to subscribe to (hopefully) read something i don't already know, for the free part it's way too generic

And it will remain so till the end. a virtual intercourse...

though that's a nice article for someone who isn't experienced but interrested in the analog realm in general, it's a nice starting point

If you call THAT a "starting point", don't be surprised that youngsters don't know $hit.

Guys, I have read the article throughout. maybe the term "beat around the bush" is a little harsh (definition :
"be deliberately ambiguous or unclear in order to mislead or withhold information"), as I don't think that
a PRO AUDIO magazine is deliberately ambiguous, but that's what I felt upon reading the article.

i'd have expected some audiofile comparisons, which would say more that a million words

+1

Otherwise the article is useless, IMHO.

You'll go "Hmmm... interesting" and carry on, abusing you compressor/saturator while on the way moan that
"the thing doesn't distort, dammit ! ah can't hear a thing ! "



Then you'll ask yourself "but how does analog 'warmth' actually SOUNDS like ?

maybe that comes in the not free version of the article

Nope

it is absoluteley not true that altering the phase a certain way is to be strictly avoided, as a lot want to make us believe

Once again, (a lot of) people think of PHASE as a "Bad" thing ("Bro, flip tha phase or ya bass would not be
heard !") just as harmonic distortion is first and foremost a DISTORTION (IMHO, when talking about HARMONIC
distortion, the term distortion is to be avoided. it is simply an harmonic MODIFICATION. distortion is a
term to be used at NASA. here is just causes confusion)

I've said it, and I'll say it again : as audio engineering jargon reached the critical mass, IT NEEDS TO RESRESH
ITSELF (and ITS TECHNICAL TERMS).

To 98% of people who engage in audio :

PHASE (issues) is BAD
DISTORTION is BAD (and since it's BAD it needs to be HEARD)
Analog is ALWAYS better (Oh yea ?! )
Digital is THIN (never understood why it hasn't been used as WEIGHT LOSS regime eg. digital compressor - the BiPhase Shrinker )
Compression will make your beats PHAT and LOUD (dude, apply 4dB at the low-end and turn up the gain - you'll
get the SAME "PHAT and LOUD" beat...)

Etc etc....

Coming back to the OP , I did like the CL. why ?

...and i have yet to hear any compressor that defines the attack in combination of the input drive in such a pleasant way

Dunno what you have just said, fella ... I like the way it does "Phluckkkkk" on my drums (and bass).

It's WAY over my price limit, though

[Tp3]

Why argue when we can go right here or

[brok landers]

Why argue when we can go right here or

right, let's keep this thread about the artsacoustic compressors, they really deserve it, and leave the rest to the other threads.

>snip< wholeheartly agreed
Coming back to the OP , I did like the CL. why ?

...and i have yet to hear any compressor that defines the attack in combination of the input drive in such a pleasant way

Dunno what you have just said, fella ... I like the way it does "Phluckkkkk" on my drums (and bass).
>snip<

then you perfectly understood what i was saying, that was exactly what i meant.
i however have the feeling that this beautiful transient response (the "phluckkkk" as you say ) is also affecting all other areas of the "properties" of the artsacoustic compressors ... to me it seems that you can compress harder than with other compressors just because the transient response doesn't seem to make you go "no, that's too much". i donno how they did it, but to me the partly component modelled stuff seems to pay out greatly. normally a compressor puts you into a position where you are limited by the "borders" of what you can do with it according to how it affects the sound. in case of the artsacoustic compressors, these borders simply don't sem to be there. they always sound great, even when compressing way too hard. of course you can't do that mostly, as the mix demands how hard/soft you can/should compress, but in case of the artsacoustic compressors it's not the sound of the compressors that dictate that, but only the mix, to me at least. with other compressors i was shown the borders due to the sound of the compressors, the signal itself simply didn't sound good anymore after a certain ammount of compression ... not so with the cl series ...
i read somewhere that bmanic is writing a review on the artsacoustic compressors, i'm extremly curious on thatone. hopefully he will provide some audio examples, i'm really keen on how others, especially knowledged ones like bmanic, use these compressors ... i also would like to hear other pov's on the m/s processing, which i used to success on some signals, too ...