I think I finally hate amp sims!

[dubbelQ]

the thing with real amps is this:

- no aliasing
- interaction between eq bands
- eq _before_ input to the gain stage
- generally utter crap

you just never realized how crap your cabinet/amp combo was because it was what you had. pick any software with the three features i listed above and use it; remember, utter crap is a feature.

i can't even bring myself to "tweak" an overdrive three-band input like you find on most cheaper amps. you just it and forget it. usually it's something like +50, +75, -25 or so. then just set the drive to about 50% and go. the difference between 50% and 55% is almost impossible to notice. they're usually parameters that could have gone with seven-step drawbars without any issue.

Have you ever owned a hardware amp? Like a ampsim will sound e.g. like the Marshall stack I had some time in back in the Cretaceous Period, or earlier. Yeah right!

[Hink]

Self portrait?

Hink just before getting a lap dance........

my hair is a little bit longer

[Hink]

the thing with real amps is this:

- no aliasing
- interaction between eq bands
- eq _before_ input to the gain stage
- generally utter crap

you just never realized how crap your cabinet/amp combo was because it was what you had. pick any software with the three features i listed above and use it; remember, utter crap is a feature.

My J Station sounds better than anything you could cobble together in software of that I am quite confident............

it must not meet the "no aliasing" criteria, or something else then.

yes i agree, i have a four-transistor design that sounds a million times better than any software i've ever used or any hardware i've ever used. i know roughly the function for it, but it's so difficult to compute that with a reasonable 4/8/16x oversample in addition to the cost of the eq it becomes ridiculously expensive.

that doesn't mean it's impossible, but yeah it doesn't really exist.

the jstation is an amp sim as well, it just has the ability to use 100% of a dedicated processor for a single task. i think most software authors are _afraid_ to do such a thing in a vst plugin. the thought is "who would ever consider using a plugin which requires 100% cpu power on the latest processor?".

my point though was that if you _don't_ get picky with your hardware, you don't need to get too picky with your software either. while your jstation may sound great, most cheaper $200 cabs do not.

back in the 70s my buddy had a sound city half stack, tube amp on a 4x10...they both sucked so we called it the sound shitty...he sold the head because it sucked...he kept the cab for the exact same reason

[aciddose]

the thing with real amps is this:

- no aliasing
- interaction between eq bands
- eq _before_ input to the gain stage
- generally utter crap

you just never realized how crap your cabinet/amp combo was because it was what you had. pick any software with the three features i listed above and use it; remember, utter crap is a feature.

i can't even bring myself to "tweak" an overdrive three-band input like you find on most cheaper amps. you just it and forget it. usually it's something like +50, +75, -25 or so. then just set the drive to about 50% and go. the difference between 50% and 55% is almost impossible to notice. they're usually parameters that could have gone with seven-step drawbars without any issue.

Have you ever owned a hardware amp? Like a ampsim will sound e.g. like the Marshall stack I had some time in back in the Cretaceous Period, or earlier. Yeah right!

i have a few friends/friends of friends who are amp / guitar connoisseurs. "will" is the important thing. given a chance yes you could easily do it in software. anything you can compute electronically can also be computed on paper, or digitally, or in whatever format you like. it just requires that you plug in exactly the same equations.

i admit, a majority of "amp sims" are written by apparent morons who can't hear properly.

again, my point was that if you are comparing to a cheap amp, software sounds equally as cheap.

[susiwong]

All in all I have to agree with Rich - we're not there yet by a mile.
In 5 years' time things will look brighter.

Mind you, I'm not saying ampsims are useless.
Some models (e.g. clean Fenders, JC120, bass amps) already sound pretty good, in AT especially.
Good impulses and external dynamics plugs add another 20% or so.
Some stuff like "simple" Marshalls still are pathetic in any sim, LePou's amps being among the best atm here, imho.
Let others judge the high gain stuff.

The problem is not with sound so much, it's the feel mostly.
That's why folks without much real amp experience (and I'm talking quality amps) just don't get it - they would, too, if you lccked them in a good music store over the weekend.

So what I do is:
-- always monitor via a real tube preamp or amp while tracking, ballpark FX from the board mostly
-- simultaneously record a clean DI signal (which I don't hear, obviously)
-- when mixing I'm free to use that DI signal for layering with the real stuff, or even occasionally use a sound from a sim on its own.
IBP or Bootsie's NastyVCS help when layering.
-- best of both worlds, keeps the playing experience human

Ymmv,
susiwong

[Hink]

the thing with real amps is this:

- no aliasing
- interaction between eq bands
- eq _before_ input to the gain stage
- generally utter crap

you just never realized how crap your cabinet/amp combo was because it was what you had. pick any software with the three features i listed above and use it; remember, utter crap is a feature.

i can't even bring myself to "tweak" an overdrive three-band input like you find on most cheaper amps. you just it and forget it. usually it's something like +50, +75, -25 or so. then just set the drive to about 50% and go. the difference between 50% and 55% is almost impossible to notice. they're usually parameters that could have gone with seven-step drawbars without any issue.

Have you ever owned a hardware amp? Like a ampsim will sound e.g. like the Marshall stack I had some time in back in the Cretaceous Period, or earlier. Yeah right!

i have a few friends/friends of friends who are amp / guitar connoisseurs. "will" is the important thing. given a chance yes you could easily do it in software. anything you can compute electronically can also be computed on paper, or digitally, or in whatever format you like. it just requires that you plug in exactly the same equations.

i admit, a majority of "amp sims" are written by apparent morons who can't hear properly.

again, my point was that if you are comparing to a cheap amp, software sounds equally as cheap.

you know you're both right...right? Recorded aciddose makes a good point, live dubbleQ is right...one thing a sim wont do is react like a tube amp at stage volume, not even Vandal

[Hink]

So what I do is:
-- always monitor via a real tube preamp or amp while tracking, ballpark FX from the board mostly
-- simultaneously record a clean DI signal (which I don't hear, obviously)
-- when mixing I'm free to use that DI signal for layering with the real stuff, or even occasionally use a sound from a sim on its own.
IBP or Bootsie's NastyVCS help when layering.
-- best of both worlds, keeps the playing experience human

Ymmv,
susiwong

very close to me now that I got the Weber but I often still use the xt live as a reference amp if going through headphones for the wife's sake. However I also record a track from the output of my Boss CH-1 but very subtle for re-amping. I created this to explain my rig a while ago, my guitar output goes into my Radial ABY box

Radial

Output A>POD XT LIVE>Channels 3&4 Firestudio

Output B>Boss CH-1>Channel 2 Firestudio

Tuner (True Bypass)>Channel 1 Firestudio

Boss second output available for whatever (second splitter) like my amp

With the Boss and the true bypass going to channel 1&2 (both mono) I get an old school stereo rig, record a dry track and one with mono chorus (combining with the dry for the stereo rig)

The POD XT LIVE is used as a reference amp so I can use the direct monitor on my soundcard, can be recorded as well

All channels go via adat to and from my EMU 1820 so I can monitor with fx but record with out them, record with fx returns or just record the fx returns.

[susiwong]

Yeah, similar workflow.
In case anyone's interested, I wrote down my concept here a while ago :
http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=239997
Most of that is still how I work today, a few little details always change.
Ymmv,
susiwong

[Dean Aka Nekro]

So what I do is:
-- always monitor via a real tube preamp or amp while tracking, ballpark FX from the board mostly
-- simultaneously record a clean DI signal (which I don't hear, obviously)
-- when mixing I'm free to use that DI signal for layering with the real stuff, or even occasionally use a sound from a sim on its own.
IBP or Bootsie's NastyVCS help when layering.
-- best of both worlds, keeps the playing experience human

Ymmv,
susiwong

very close to me now that I got the Weber but I often still use the xt live as a reference amp if going through headphones for the wife's sake. However I also record a track from the output of my Boss CH-1 but very subtle for re-amping. I created this to explain my rig a while ago, my guitar output goes into my Radial ABY box

Radial

Output A>POD XT LIVE>Channels 3&4 Firestudio

Output B>Boss CH-1>Channel 2 Firestudio

Tuner (True Bypass)>Channel 1 Firestudio

Boss second output available for whatever (second splitter) like my amp

With the Boss and the true bypass going to channel 1&2 (both mono) I get an old school stereo rig, record a dry track and one with mono chorus (combining with the dry for the stereo rig)

The POD XT LIVE is used as a reference amp so I can use the direct monitor on my soundcard, can be recorded as well

All channels go via adat to and from my EMU 1820 so I can monitor with fx but record with out them, record with fx returns or just record the fx returns.

LOL - Oh you would of loved how complicated my old setup was - ask susiwong Hink!!! It was a WTF are you insane sort of reply i got, it is alot more streamlined now It was roughly eight times more complex and included backup chains, a four-way morley switcher, 2 ART AB/Y boxes, two radial DI's and so much more i will quit whilst i do not end up listing it all out and - Not that the tones i were getting were bad at all but i got sick of carting so much around

[Hink]

Yeah, similar workflow.

like you said, great minds think alike

In case anyone's interested, I wrote down my concept here a while ago :
http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=239997
Most of that is still how I work today, a few little details always change.
Ymmv,
susiwong

you should copy that to wps to save yourself time, that's what I did and this is my first time using it

Still though I cannot emphasize how nice it is to open Samp with a template I have that has two vandals panned just a tad apart using the Boss and sent to a bus for fx and wailing in the headphones (beyer dynamics dt-770). It is quite a lot of fun.

I'm also thinking about trying one of those Ibanez Tube Screamer heads and like the duclimer was suppose to be when my dad died when the inevitable happens with my mother (she's doing better though so hopefully it will be a long, long time) my project to get me through I think is going to be a kit from mojo for a Marshall 18 watt head

http://www.mojotone.com/amp-parts/18-Wa ... e-Head-Kit

maybe we should organize a group buy

[susiwong]

wps ? wtf ?

[Hink]

wps ? wtf ?

word

[futurefields]

BTW I'm only 51

Kids...........

I'm with Hink -- Vandal's my personal favorite, and I tend to do minimal tweaking with it. I make a few quick adjustments, and it's ready to roll. Really, it's "zee best" at the (and maybe any?) moment.

Except for the $200 asking price of Vandal I'd be inclined to buy a Pod or another hardware unit...............

And you'd be a fool for it. POD = old crap-ass software amps. In a hardware bean. "Fool me once... shame on... shame on..."

Same thing with the J-Station (old crappy software amps in a hardware box) "you fool me can't get fooled againd!"


Also, re: software amps not responding to dynamics, this is fundamentally incorrect. All the good software amps break up more the harder you dig into the strings. I know Vintage Amp Room, Amplitube, Guitar Rig, and Studio Devil do because those are the ones I've used. Whether you like the tone or not, they do react to dynamics.

In fact the POD amps that you apparently prefer are completely non-dynamic compared to the good modern sims. So, there's that. Maybe what you really like is processed, fake guitar tone.

[susiwong]

wps ? wtf ?

word

I'm clueless.
Not for the 1st time, true ...

cheers,
susiwong

[Hink]

wps ? wtf ?

word

I'm clueless.
Not for the 1st time, true ...

cheers,
susiwong

and the pun was so good

works document extension