I think I finally hate amp sims!

[susiwong]

wps ? wtf ?

word

I'm clueless.
Not for the 1st time, true ...

cheers,
susiwong

and the pun was so good

works document extension

Thanks !
Couldn't possibly know that one ...
Here's what Wikipedia has to say :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wps
I was leaning towards "Women's Professional Soccer" for no particular reason, maybe because these women really got balls ...

Lol,
susiwong

[androidlove]

i put a cab ir on hardware distortion. i don't use any vst live with my guitar. the latency throws off my shredding. i might put up with it, though, if i found a sim of this

[Hink]

i put a cab ir on hardware distortion. i don't use any vst live with my guitar. the latency throws off my shredding. i might put up with it, though, if i found a sim of this

if I that was my only choice I would play the tuba Glad you like it

[GeorgeZ]

And that's the problem I've always found with software. It doesn't sound like part of the signal rather something that is tacked on top. There doesn't seem to be much response to playing, no interaction................again I'm sure the lynch mob will take exception to that statement...........

I have to say, I feel much the same. No problem recording brainstorms with a ampsim, but when it comes to the real take, I just can't substitute my Dual Rec's sound through a 57, with software. I've tweaked and tweaked, and nudged knobs this way and that way (even IKM Metal's dual rec sim is just "ok") and they just sound tacked onto the original sound/signal. The other thing is, no matter what amp sim one's using, they all seem brittle in the low end (and I'm not even talking detuned, just standard or Drop D). I did try Vandal, but it's still thin sounding to me. Still, not a real replacement as such.

I guess the other thing for most guitarists is, I have a real monster of an amp standing right next to me, which I paid NZ$7k for, so why not use it? Psychological effect maybe (more expensive is better?) or real tube amps just still do it better... ?

I vote for the latter.

Don't get me wrong, I support ampsim VST development fully, however, I don't think anyone's got it close to right just yet.

[aciddose]

playing clean with my guitars or my rhodes, or running mics directly into the pc (even using more expensive ADCs) generally sounds bad as well, because they're designed for high current line level signals.

using a good preamp can make a huge difference.

that's something to keep in mind when you're judging this stuff.

i use a traynor console for it's preamps before going into the ADC.

[chj]

I think the problem for the original post is too much choice and I can absolutely relate. I used to have every free ampsim, tons of cabinet impulses, limited versions, demos, hardware pedals, etc. After awhile any guitar part required trying an infinite combination of different options and I got sick of it. I've never had a good real amp and never spent enough time with the other ampsims to provide a fair comparison, but I ended up just sticking with Guitar Rig because it fit best and I was much happier. (Then GR's new component menu came out, argh, but that's a whole different story that's well documented on NI's forum.)

I still try new stuff when it comes out, but I'm no longer jumping at every new ampsim.

[gavriloP]

I have to say that VOX AC30 amplug "toy" was the best guitar equipment purchase that I've ever done! I much rather use it with pedals before it than ampsims. With Danelectro FAB overdrive (cheap as hell, almost "toy" too) I get great lead sounds etc. I even got neutrik adapter to hook mics with that little amplug and man was it fun to sing through it or play some blues harp. Results are surprisingly good and what is best, I'm not spending hours finding that perfect tone after recording.

I have to say that I am nowadays only using free ampsims so I don't know about latest amplitubes and such but with cheap stuff this good I have no need for that. And I'll have to add that it is exactly the clean/crunch tones that have been less than stellar with sims for me. High gain mayhem is working well with LePou's and TSE's sims. But I really have no personal need for that kind of sound.

All in all transistor "tube modelling" still sounds better to me than digital approximations. And hey, at least it is real analog

My only real amp at the moment is Epiphone valve jr but it is gathering dust now. I only use it if I need feedback.

BTW amplug sounds little different comparing which way you hook it up to your recoring rig. There is no line out from the little box, only headphones out but you can use it as one.


I actually got information about this thing at REAPER boards from user Peter Sadul. His stuff is completely done with amplug (well, there is reverbs and such added later, naturally). Check it out!

http://www.mikseri.net/artists/?id=55646


Once again, this is NOT my stuff, but I think it is pretty cool. My cup of tea, so to speak.

[Ivan_C]

Hmmmm... You can compare only things which are comparable. A few things everybody should keep in mind about amp sims :

- This is impossible to simulate an amplifier combo with simulators. Because what you simulate with software is the amplifier, the cab AND the room AND the microphone AND the preamplifier of the microphone used to record the impulse response
- You can't feel the same thing when you're in front of a real amplifier's cab and in front of your studio speakers
- You can't feel the thing when you're in front of a real amplifier's cab and in front of your 30 bucks Logitech computer speakers
- If you record your guitar with a 100 bucks soundcard, you won't have at all the same sound than your friend, doing exactly the same thing with the same parameters, but with a soundcard more expensive, using good Hi-Z inputs and A/D convertors
- It is almost impossible to know in a mix if the guitar has been recorded with real amplifiers or good software simulators with a good soundcard

Knowing that, now you can try again amplifier simulators, for what they are and not more, using good convertors, good studio speakers, and of course good amp sims, like the Vandal one I like a lot, or the very good free ones, as LePou / TSE and IgniteAmps plug-ins

[docdued]

Exactly. I am pretty happy with my Pod X3, keeping in mind that it simulates the whole recording chain. Of course my old Marshall with a 4x12 sounded better when played @ 100 dB in the practice room or on stage, but recording it properly and bringing that sound onto tape is a different story.

[Ivan_C]

Else, you have some good products now to record directly your real amplifier without using microphones and having a room where you can play very loud, like the SPL Cabulator or that : Torpedo VB-101

[susiwong]

Hmmmm... You can compare only things which are comparable. A few things everybody should keep in mind about amp sims :

- This is impossible to simulate an amplifier combo with simulators. Because what you simulate with software is the amplifier, the cab AND the room AND the microphone AND the preamplifier of the microphone used to record the impulse response
- You can't feel the same thing when you're in front of a real amplifier's cab and in front of your studio speakers
- You can't feel the thing when you're in front of a real amplifier's cab and in front of your 30 bucks Logitech computer speakers
- If you record your guitar with a 100 bucks soundcard, you won't have at all the same sound than your friend, doing exactly the same thing with the same parameters, but with a soundcard more expensive, using good Hi-Z inputs and A/D convertors
- It is almost impossible to know in a mix if the guitar has been recorded with real amplifiers or good software simulators with a good soundcard

Knowing that, now you can try again amplifier simulators, for what they are and not more, using good convertors, good studio speakers, and of course good amp sims, like the Vandal one I like a lot, or the very good free ones, as LePou / TSE and IgniteAmps plug-ins

That's exactly the cheap marketing mumbo jumbo the ampsim vendors come up with to discourage comparison - and it's wrong on so many levels.

- nobody would complain if the ampsims sounded and felt like a real amp/cab simply close mic'd with a '57 - unfortunately they don't, not by a long shot.
- while the speakers may be an additional problem for some, nobody acknowledges the fact that even over average monitors (Genelec 1031s here for example, same for midpriced Mackies, KRKs, whatever) a real mic'd amp (in another room) sounds and feels just great, a DI'd tube preamp almost as good and the ampsims - well, their deficiencies become glaringly obvious at best.
- have you done the soundcard / input comparison yourself ?
I guess not, or you would have noticed a cheap guitar DI like the one from Waves/PRS levels the playing field, completely. All that matters is the design of the guitar input stage, the rest, well, maybe 2 or 3% dfference between a cheap M-Audio and an RME with separate converters like I use or even a Mytek setup, probably even less - not really worth mentioning.
Of course plugging a guitar into a budget Lo Z input will cost you tone, but that's beside the point. Nobody would expect that to work great anyway.
- who says it's impossible to tell a sim track from a real one ?
Maybe with mega-distorted power chords yes, maybe, can't speak for these.
It's pretty easy with lower gain stuff however, really. The tonal dynamics are a dead giveaway when you hear a good player.
- and then, what remains is the feel, the way a sim reacts to what your fingers do opposed to what a mic'd real amp or even a lowly DI'ed tube pre (over the same speakers as the sim !) do - it's not even comparable.

So no, sorry, this time there's no "ymmv" under my post.
Cheers,
susiwong

[olepro]

With real world amps (remember those?) I can NEVER remember doing this much tweaking just to dial in a pleasing tone. I'm not arguing that sims have come a long way, sound great and are hard to distinguish from the real thing in a mix. They just happen to SUCK to play! Anyone else feel the same? Please discuss...

Rich

Maybe that's because you didn't have the choise to tweak your self half to dead.
When there is two buttons, what can you do other than........ PLAY

[Ivan_C]

- nobody would complain if the ampsims sounded and felt like a real amp/cab simply close mic'd with a '57 - unfortunately they don't, not by a long shot.

Have you ever recorded a lot a guitar cabs yourself ? Else, I have quoted very recent software guitar amp sims on purpose, because I have tried a lot of them I don't like much the others, as the hardware ones, so don't give me false thoughts

while the speakers may be an additional problem for some, nobody acknowledges the fact that even over average monitors (Genelec 1031s here for example, same for midpriced Mackies, KRKs, whatever) a real mic'd amp (in another room) sounds and feels just great, a DI'd tube preamp almost as good and the ampsims - well, their deficiencies become glaringly obvious at best.

Not all the real mic'd amps sound good, it's very easy to make them sound bad in a recording, if you don't put a good equalization on it, if you don't know how to put the microphone properly in front of the speaker. I have to say also that personnally I don't like a lot the SM57, and I use half of the time a tube preamp (Lag Spitfire & ADA MP-1 modified) to do my recordings. But when I want a Mesa/Boogie sound, or I want to record something quickly, I use one of the VST I have quoted before.

- have you done the soundcard / input comparison yourself ?

Yes. There is a huge diffence between the sound you can get with a Tascam US-122 and a RME Multiface or a Mbox Pro 2, with exactly the same setup in the same DAW. And a lot of people doesn't use good convertors with their amp sims I think. That's why I was talking about that.

- who says it's impossible to tell a sim track from a real one ?
Maybe with mega-distorted power chords yes, maybe, can't speak for these.
It's pretty easy with lower gain stuff however, really. The tonal dynamics are a dead giveaway when you hear a good player.

OK that's right, it's not that impossible. What I mean is this not so evident (I have seen a lot of blind test subjects on forums, and the results have never showed that everything is all the time better with real amps). And I think it's easier to feel the difference between a real and a simulated when you are playing with it yourself, because the feedback you get is very different. When the thing has been recorded yet, it's a lot more difficult to say if this is real or not. I'm talking about the good simulators again of course.

- and then, what remains is the feel, the way a sim reacts to what your fingers do opposed to what a mic'd real amp or even a lowly DI'ed tube pre (over the same speakers as the sim !) do - it's not even comparable.

That's exactly what I just wrote for the last quote Also, I don't like that much the false cabinet simulator with a poor lowpass filter you have on "recording outputs" in the preamps...

So no, sorry, this time there's no "ymmv" under my post.

I don't like this kind of comments, I feel like I'm talking with the ego of someone instead of this "someone"'s itself, and this is often a lot less interesting.

And I have not been able to say what I don't like in guitar amp sims, you have given me some wrong arguments yet.

[dodokvr]

Just get your stock sounds and your done. How many tones do you need? 3 million options is a selling point but not practical or relevant to most. If you don't think your amp sim tweaking is that good then see if there is a user library available online. It's good for seeing how others craft their tone. There's a lot more settings to do in the chain with amp sims even though you don't think there is. And make sure there's a good signal going in and you've tweaked to suit what the sound is coming out of. It all helps.

[redshift factor]

I can't stand the fact that I sit down at my computer and have 10,000,000 combinations to choose from that will ALL require a good 30 minutes to an hour of tweaking before I am ready to record. What was experimental and fun at first, has become a bit of a nightmare.

I know exactly how you feel. I have grappled with this same issue.
There is a simple answer to this. Simple to derive anyways, if not execute...
LIMIT YOURSELF. Exercise self control.

Pick just one ampsim (for me, it is AmpliTube) and block all the other noise out. Ignore the latest ampsim fads and their fanboys, and just focus on the one you've chosen. But don't stop there. Limit yourself to one or two amp models. Create a default preset setup the way you like it, with your stomp chain, and your amp of choice, just like it was your one and only hardware amp. Yes, ampsims offer a lot of choices, but you don't have to use them all. They are there so every type of guitarist can have THEIR own amp, NOT so YOU can have every type of amp!

For me, almost every tone I create is based around the Plexi in AT3. I've gotten to know it quite well and have to say, I prefer playing it clean with a rack chorus over the JC-120, or cranking everything to 10 and doing a stomp EQ boost to drive it, over higher gain amps and distortion boxes. I've come to know this one model well enough that I can get the tone I'm looking for, and do it better than I can with other models. There are of course exceptions. If I want some '70s bell-bottom hard rock for some reason, I may go for the Orange. Or I may want that Fender tone that only a Fender can deliver. But these are specific circumstances where I want very specific sounds, and I go right to them without a lot of fuss. If I'm just doing 'my' sound, it's going to be the Plexi. At least for right now...