Att'n Developers: Rent Your Plugins

[jens]

It would mean you couldn't properly open older projects anymore after the rent period of certain plugins had expired. Also it would cause additional work for both the customer and the plugin-company. The idea only has disadvantages, no real advantages at all.

An analogy:

I decide to renovate my kitchen. For this I need a drill so I rent one from the hardware store.
I work on my kitchen for a month with the rented drill. Then for a myriad of reasons work on the kitchen stops. I return the drill.
Then a few weeks later I return working on it, and obviously need the drill again so I rent it again.

I could have either got all my drill work done initially (ie rendered), or if I still need it I re-rent it.

Why do you reply to my post if you decide to ignore the argument it contains?

In your 'analogy' you use the drill once, for a certain task. When the task has been finished, the tool is not needed anymore.

If you hired a carpenter to renovate your kittchen, do you think this carpenter would use rented drills? Why not?


With plugins, the difference to your kittchen story is even bigger though (as is obvious from my argument you chose to ignore). Projects such as musical ones can be put aside at any state and for any length of time (unlike your kittchen) to be reworked/modified/finished and even re-used at any later date.

[jens]

even though you think I should be eaten by Wolves

I don't! In fact I often agree with you (while completely disagreeing with you ocassionally on other topics). I just sometimes get the impression you must be KVR's most grumpy member.

[Fritze]

I guess my problem with the idea comes back to when I was poor. I wanted that thing too, but I simply had to save up for it. To me then, it would be like adding extra cash to the object that I could have just saved up for then just bought.

It's not like the thing is going to go poof in a few weeks never to be seen again....

Thanx for the clarification. I saved up for things, too.
And then there are things that you might "need" now: Like a rental car on holidays, or a certain audio software that would save you hundreds of hours works on a (poorly) paid audio engineering job.

[whyterabbyt]

if your analog were valid, i'd be wrong about your post.

if my analogy was valid, your assertion that it was invalid would be wrong?

wow.

i guess you're wrong then.

[Mushy Mushy]

In your 'analogy' you use the drill once, for a certain task. When the task has been finished, the tool is not needed anymore.

If you hired a carpenter to renovate your kittchen, do you think this carpenter would use rented drills? Why not?


With plugins, the difference to your kittchen story is even bigger though (as is obvious from my argument you chose to ignore). Projects such as musical ones can be put aside at any state and for any length of time (unlike your kittchen) to be reworked/modified/finished and even re-used at any later date.

Huh? When i've used the plugin I dont need it anymore either.
Unless of course I do for another task, just like a drill. It is at this point I will do the cost/benefit analysis, budget analysis and anticipated usage analysis. The outcome of which will determine buy, rent or ignore.

I need the tool (be it drill or plugin) for a task. I dont care whether I own or rent it, so long as it's there available when I need it.

[Fritze]

Huh? When i've used the plugin I dont need it anymore either.
Unless of course I do for another task, just like a drill. It is at this point I will do the cost/benefit analysis, budget analysis and anticipated usage analysis. The outcome of which will determine buy, rent or ignore.

I need the tool (be it drill or plugin) for a task. I dont care whether I own or rent it, so long as it's there available when I need it.

Exactly! Couldn't have written it better.

[pough]

There is nothing pointless about fighting an idea that doesn't make sense. Do you really want to keep track of when all your plugins expire.

I gave you an example of when it makes sense, but I'm thinking you've got an advanced case of Morton's Demon. I think the problem I'm having communicating with you is you just can't comprehend that other people aren't you. Time and again you've railed against this idea because it's not something that would work for you. Even when you didn't understand what was being proposed (rental not demo) you thought it was stupid for everyone because it didn't interest you.

And that's what I really don't get. If some developers implemented it (and 3 already have) then it wouldn't affect you in any what whatsoever, but you still feel it's important for anyone not you to get what they want if it's not what you want. It's insane.

Oh now resorting to foul language....another bastion of those whose argument has no merit....

I enjoy foul language and never use it as a last resort. I consider it to be a valid part of the English language and I think those who avoid it are strange.

How would one use it as a bastion?

If you don't like the way I've been posting for many years

It's not that I don't like it, it's that it seems odd. When read as it should be, your voice trails off into breathy incoherence and the read is left with the impression that thinking pains you. Can't..... think straight..... losing........ argument..... must..... claim opponent...... has lost it......

then take a look over to your left. See the mute button? Hit it and your problem is solved........and you'll eliminate a minor annoyance for me as well..........

I tried, but you're a mod, so I can't.

[pough]

With plugins, the difference to your kittchen story is even bigger though (as is obvious from my argument you chose to ignore). Projects such as musical ones can be put aside at any state and for any length of time (unlike your kittchen) to be reworked/modified/finished and even re-used at any later date.

The difference is bigger for some people. If you have a small studio that does projects for other people it would make sense to be able to rent plugins that you don't commonly use because once the project is done you can archive it and probably never return to it. And if you do have to return to it, you can rent the plugin again.

It doesn't make sense in all situations, but it does make sense in some. Mind you, the depressing prevalence of cracks likely makes this whole discussion moot.

[aciddose]

if your analog were valid, i'd be wrong about your post.

if my analogy was valid, your assertion that it was invalid would be wrong?

wow.

i guess you're wrong then.

why, because your "gut instinct" told you so?

you still haven't bothered to explain exactly how your analog applies to the comment you were replying to when positing the analogy.

i think the issue is that you simply didn't understand what his post was talking about.

do you disagree with his post? he said that companies would prefer to have you rent something so your costs can increase many times beyond the price you would have paid had you been able to purchase the product in the first place.

all you've done is spew a bunch of unrelated crap instead of making any comment about what he actually said.

you attempted to point out that in a mortgage or loan you must pay interest. this has nothing to do with the point he was making and is only a straw-man when used as an argument against him.

perhaps i'm wrong about one thing - if you agreed with him and only asked a question in agreement, what was the purpose of your doing so? what was your point?

if you did disagree i still can't come up with any reason the analogy would be valid or what would motivate you to state it other than to attack his point indirectly by confusing the issue. in a mortgage or loan you tend to pay only a fraction more, not many times more. or are you talking about mafia loans?

[sonicpowa]

I think this "rent plugins" system won't work. The cost of it will be bigger than the profit.

[zabadu]

I need the tool (be it drill or plugin) for a task. I dont care whether I own or rent it, so long as it's there available when I need it.

So...
...every time you decide to resume work on your piece, you'll need the plugin.
...every time you decide to try something and think "hey, what if I tried that particular process", you'll need the plugin.
...if the plugin has some steep learning curve at first (ex: some autotune thing with plenty of parameters), you won't want to spend some time learning it, as it would imply PAYING for it.

You don't care as long as it's there available: if you rent it, it won't be available immediately, unless there's a really easy way to rent it online, transparently etc. Will you really try to insert some compressor if you have to rent it? You'll probably stick with what you have at hand natively (eg. bundled with your host, or... bought).

[Mushy Mushy]

So...
...every time you decide to resume work on your piece, you'll need the plugin.
...every time you decide to try something and think "hey, what if I tried that particular process", you'll need the plugin.
...if the plugin has some steep learning curve at first (ex: some autotune thing with plenty of parameters), you won't want to spend some time learning it, as it would imply PAYING for it.

You don't care as long as it's there available: if you rent it, it won't be available immediately, unless there's a really easy way to rent it online, transparently etc. Will you really try to insert some compressor if you have to rent it? You'll probably stick with what you have at hand natively (eg. bundled with your host, or... bought).

It is at this point I will do the cost/benefit analysis, budget analysis and anticipated usage analysis. The outcome of which will determine buy, rent or ignore.

[Teksonik]

even though you think I should be eaten by Wolves

I don't! In fact I often agree with you (while completely disagreeing with you ocassionally on other topics). I just sometimes get the impression you must be KVR's most grumpy member.

I am not grumpy......and if you don't take that back I'll kill you.....Seriously I'm really not a bad chap just opinionated and hard headed as we all are at times.

[whyterabbyt]

why, because your "gut instinct" told you so?

No, just because, unlike you, Im not making assumptions about what I meant. I actually know what I meant. And why I meant it, which you know even less.

you still haven't bothered to explain exactly how your analog applies to the comment you were replying to when positing the analogy.

i wasn't positing an analogy, i was making one.

a definition for 'analogy' is a comparison between attributes of two things, and need be nothing more than that. i already told you that.

it seems you think all analogies are analogies as argument but i suspect that's maybe because you spend a little too much time at places like slashdot where attacking an analogy is a common tactic to 'win an argument that wasnt actually an argument in the first place

so far you seem to be falling into that pattern, where the slashkiddies think finding one dissimilarity in the attributes being compared somehow nullifies the point being made in its entirety.

that's simplistic nonsense though. any analogy can be dissected for dissimilarities; the essence of analogy is pointing out a similarity so it goes without saying that there have to be dissimilarities as well. Otherwise there wouldnt be two things to draw a comparison between, there would only be two instances of the same thing.
Finding the dissimilarities doesnt invalidate an analogy, it just identifies where its delimited.

In short, try not to conflate 'analogy' with 'argument by analogy.'

i think the issue is that you simply didn't understand what his post was talking about.

well, you're wrong then.

do you disagree with his post? he said that companies would prefer to have you rent something so your costs can increase many times beyond the price you would have paid had you been able to purchase the product in the first place.

if that was what companies would prefer, i would have expected to see it as the prevalent business model.
since it isnt, its an entirely reasonable conclusion that it might not be true.

all you've done is spew a bunch of unrelated crap instead of making any comment about what he actually said.

says the guy who brought up four paragraphs about justifying making a profit from a mortgage because it creates 'liquidity' and other genuinely unrelated crap.

you attempted to point out that in a mortgage or loan you must pay interest.

erm, no i didnt actually. i didnt make any reference to interest.

the mechanism by which people might pay more than the up-front price was not part of anything I was concerned with, and its a straw man to claim so.

The analogy was drawn with other cases, acceptable in the remit of purchasing goods, where paying more than the up-front cost, is common. Nothing more, nothing less.

this has nothing to do with the point he was making and is only a straw-man when used as an argument against him.

ironically, since I didnt do so, its actually your assertion that I did so that's a straw man.

perhaps i'm wrong about one thing - if you agreed with him and only asked a question in agreement, what was the purpose of your doing so? what was your point?

what's that got to do with you?

if you did disagree i still can't come up with any reason the analogy would be valid or what would motivate you to state it other than to attack his point indirectly by confusing the issue.

That's your shortfall, then.

in a mortgage or loan you tend to pay only a fraction more, not many times more. or are you talking about mafia loans?

By 'fraction' Im assuming you are trying to imply 'small fraction'; after all any number bar zero can be expressed as 'fraction' of any other.

I'll assume you just dont have first-hand experience of the matter. To help, try this:

http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/mort ... rates.html

Punch in a £100,0000 mortgage at 25 years at 5% interest...

I wouldn't expect many people to call the result, an extra £75,000 interest on a £100,000 mortgage to be 'only a fraction more.'

And yes, those are normal mortgage terms. 25 years is standard here, and 5 is a current rate for one of the mortgages at my own bank.

I guess real-life numbers will be 'invalid' too, though.

[Teksonik]

I gave you an example of when it makes sense, but I'm thinking you've got an advanced case of Morton's Demon. I think the problem I'm having communicating with you is you just can't comprehend that other people aren't you. Time and again you've railed against this idea because it's not something that would work for you. Even when you didn't understand what was being proposed (rental not demo) you thought it was stupid for everyone because it didn't interest you.

No it's a stupid idea whether I'm involved or not.....seriously I'm just giving my opinion, something the OP and you have done.....I'm not going to rent software but if someone wants to rent then more power to them. I'd rather developers spend their time creating new and better plugins and not on some rental tracking scheme. The fact that only 3 companies rent software and that it tends to be high end should tell you something. This is certainly not a new idea. Like I said a few pages back let's see where the Free Market takes us in a year......

but you still feel it's important for anyone not you to get what they want if it's not what you want. It's insane.

No what's insane is that you think my opinion will sway developers one way or the other......you apparently give me far too much credit.

I enjoy foul language and never use it as a last resort. I consider it to be a valid part of the English language and I think those who avoid it are strange.

Well then go f**k yourself....hey that was fun I feel much better now....and my argument seems so much more coherent now....

It's not that I don't like it, it's that it seems odd. When read as it should be, your voice trails off into breathy incoherence and the read is left with the impression that thinking pains you. Can't..... think straight..... losing........ argument..... must..... claim opponent...... has lost it......

It's a speech impediment........no, thinking doesn't hurt it's listening to those who can't or won't think that's painful....

I tried, but you're a mod, so I can't.

I'm not a mod....so please do us both a favor and Mute away.......