Supersaw: Still sounding bad!!!

[Ingonator]

Massive anthems, tasty plucks, classic 'mainstream' melodies made with supersaw since 1997. And this sounds belongs to roland JP-8000. Can you give me examples such as JP8000 or Virus TI?

Hi,

don't lnow exact examples besides the fact that e.g. Scooter and Depeche Mode used the Virus TI but there is a list of users on the Access website:
http://virus.info/page/render/lang/en/p ... _Fame.html

A few interviews are here:
http://virus.info/page/render/lang/en/p ... ories.html

Anyway the sounds i did based on the Virus sample (except the two Polysynth sounds maybe) are not for a specific genre. I don't like programming soundbanks for specific genres anyway...
My favorite sounds which in some way are in all banks i made so far are Synth Brass, Synth Strings, Vox, Bell and analog style lead sounds.
3 of my 4 current hardware synths maybe show this: Waldorf Blofeld desktop, Korg Wavestation EX and Moog Slim Phatty. To this you could add a few softsynths like e.g. Waldorf PPG Wave 3.V, Waldorf Largo and Xils Lab Synthix and you know what kind of sounds i like...

BTW i am planning to sell the Virus TI desktop very soon. Recently i used it for the Hypersaw only which now is possible by loading a sample into my Blofeld or my Yamaha Motif ES 7 (and into softsynths of course).


Ingo

[insigna]

Hi mate

I don't like programming soundbanks for specific genres anyway...
My favorite sounds which in some way are in all banks i made so far are Synth Brass, Synth Strings, Vox, Bell and analog style lead sounds.

This explains the everything. Scooter longer uses the virus. I know it. JP makes famous 'Scooter' as while a ordinary band. Virus was not famous because of the analog sounds.

We need more bright, glorious and commercial sounds. Of course, there will be analog and vintage sounds. Talking about different things. I respect you. Thanks

[Ingonator]

Hi mate

I don't like programming soundbanks for specific genres anyway...
My favorite sounds which in some way are in all banks i made so far are Synth Brass, Synth Strings, Vox, Bell and analog style lead sounds.

This explains the everything. Scooter longer uses the virus. I know it. JP makes famous 'Scooter' as while a ordinary band. Virus was not famous because of the analog sounds.

We need more bright, glorious and commercial sounds. Of course, there will be analog and vintage sounds. Talking about different things. I respect you. Thanks

Hi,

i respect you too...

I guess that when all Synthmaster expansions are finished there will be some sounds for almost everything. The features in Synthmaster 2.5 are almost without limit and the things it can't do could be done by importing as a sample or single cycle wave.


Ingo

[Trancit]

Because I am the thread starter, I should say something to this progress and some people wondering...

My first intention for the topic of this thread is very simple and still true:

Synthmaster has, as well as many other synths, a unison option for each Basic Osc...
Using this unison sounds very bad and flanging compared to the same features of many other synths...period!
This is nearly all this topic was about.

Meanwhile I learned a lot from the hints in this topic, some helped very much, some not really...

@ Ingonator: I respect the effort you did for sampling the virus, but to be honest, for me personally, it's really not, what i am looking for, sorry to say this, but I think, the only way to make a progress is to be honest.
The sound example you posted sounds like a lot too much chorus... it is too mushy...I don't know, if it's the samples you created or the presets you did out of them.

For my personal taste, it's Insignia, who nailed it best, whereat your presets you've posted sound more on the side of hard trance and by looking at your settings, I must say, you used some (for me) uncommon ways to achieve the sound and the presets are quite CPU intensive...on my machine, your presets using more than 5 times more CPU than e.g. JP6K, which isn't even native encoded (afaik it's made in Synthmaker, which is known as being not very CPU friendly).
To create Supersaw sounds more CPU friendly than using unison voices, was one of the mayor request for turning the osc > filter into stereo, as far as I remember and still I didn't see any good sounding supersaw presets, which can live without voice unison...

I think, we can all agree, that it is possible in some ways to program well sounding supersaws in Synthmaster.
Just want to say here again: I would love to see improvements on the basic osc for just easier use ( whereat my previous issue, "the pulsating" is nearly solved by using pitch drift) and presets, which are easier on the CPU. Using the additive osc is still a little bit messy for me, it takes much much longer to achieve good results by starting from the scratch, than I need in every other synth I know and even with using the additive ones, I still cannot create a good supersaw without Voice Unsion, which prooves on the other side, there is something well done in the voices unison section... by enabling it, the preset sounds imidiately much more smooth, warm, round...


It is not very high priority, but there is still a little bit work to do there.

and please DO NOT FORGET the ENSEMBLE EFFECT
Set it to 8 voices, and VOILA!

Imho, using chorus like effects for creating supersaw will never achieve satisfying results.


So far...

[kv331]

Dont worry, I'll do something about this very issue! Once I finish the web site and add some security enhancements to SynthMaster...

[kv331]

Imho, using chorus like effects for creating supersaw will never achieve satisfying results.


So far...

Did you check out the ensemble?

[Trancit]

Dont worry, I'll do something about this very issue! Once I finish the web site and add some security enhancements to SynthMaster...

I know you will...would be the first time, if not

Did you check out the ensemble?

Yes, I did. Sorry, but I don't like "this" kind of Supersaw...
I don't like this chorus sound on the saws, it makes them too mushy...


Trancit

[Trancit]

Dont worry, I'll do something about this very issue! Once I finish the web site and add some security enhancements to SynthMaster...

I know you will...would be the first time, if not

Did you check out the ensemble?

Yes, I did. Sorry, but I don't like "this" kind of Supersaw...
I don't like this chorus sound on the saws, it makes them too mushy...


Trancit

Or again, I am just too silly to use it, that's always another realistic statement, which is possible for me...

[Ingonator]

Dont worry, I'll do something about this very issue! Once I finish the web site and add some security enhancements to SynthMaster...

I know you will...would be the first time, if not

Did you check out the ensemble?

Yes, I did. Sorry, but I don't like "this" kind of Supersaw...
I don't like this chorus sound on the saws, it makes them too mushy...


Trancit

Or again, I am just too silly to use it, that's always another realistic statement, which is possible for me...

I have created some more examples. I'll post them today. Maybe you'll like one of those...
I just found that when i use the additive oscillator for the Hypersaw even the maximum detune amount seems to be too few. Now i tried adding a bigger amount with a "Constant" value in the mod matrix which seems to sound closer to the "real thing".


Ingo

[Ingonator]

I have created some more examples. I'll post them today. Maybe you'll like one of those...
I just found that when i use the additive oscillator for the Hypersaw even the maximum detune amount seems to be too few. Now i tried adding a bigger amount with a "Constant" value in the mod matrix which seems to sound closer to the "real thing".


Ingo

Like already mentioned i did a few more tries to create a Hypersaw/Supersaw in Synthmaster 2.5.

All settings in the 4 presets of the audio demo are identical except the oscillators. Only the 3rd example uses an Ensemble effect, the others not. A combination of Lowpass and Highpass filter is used besides the EQ. All 4 demos use the same MIDI data.

Here are the differences in the 4 parts of the demo:
1.) This uses two detuned additive oscillators with 8 Saws each. The mod matrix is used to get a bigger detune amount for all Saws.
2.) This uses an additive oscillator with 8 Saws. The mod matrix is used to get a bigger detune amount for all Saws. Additionally a 3 voice Unison is used.
3.) This uses an additive oscillator with 8 Saws. The mod matrix is used to get a bigger detune amount for all Saws. Additionally a 8 voice Ensemble effect is used.
4.) This uses a single ocillator with a virus TI Hypersaw sample (16 Saws).

To reduce the amount of phasing the oscillators (except the sample in the last example) were used in "free running" mode.


link: http://soundcloud.com/ingoweidner/ingo- ... hypersaw-2


To make the sound "broader" it is possible to pan all Saws in the Additive oscillator differently.
I was not able to get a similar sound with only using Basic oscillators and the Unison.


UPDATE:
I have created 4 presets based on the new settings of the additive oscillator. When i'm finished with optimizing the presets i'll post a demo here.


Ingo

[Trancit]

The first one is quite ok, only all osc are centered, which makes the sound a little bit undefineable and mushy...some pan spread could help here...

The second example sounds worse than the first to me ...

The third one sounds "shitty" sorry, but this ensemble effect sounds always horrible

The fourth one is completely unusuable...it sounds like bad looping ...if you hold a note, it's like daa daa daa daa daa...not my taste, sorry.

[Ingonator]

The first one is quite ok, only all osc are centered, which makes the sound a little bit undefineable and mushy...some pan spread could help here...

The second example sounds worse than the first to me ...

The third one sounds "shitty" sorry, but this ensemble effect sounds always horrible

The fourth one is completely unusuable...it sounds like bad looping ...if you hold a note, it's like daa daa daa daa daa...not my taste, sorry.

I have already created a few presets based on the first example and like i mentioned i'll try to optimize those. Using the additive oscillator also uses much less CPU than the Unison. I have also done some experiments with pan spreading. I'll post examples soon.

About the Virus sample: It's not bad looping (some samples are up to 7 seconds long), it's just more or less extreme settings in terms of amount of Saws (2 x and detuning. I would not call it useless, it's just different and there is more movement in the sound.

Same about the Ensemble effect:
It'S a matter of taste and genre for which you use the sound. For real lush strings the combination of Hypersaw/Supersaw (maybe with less detuning of the saws) and Ensemble effect is nice. For the typical Dance/Trance stuff maybe not. I am not doing a bank for Trance/Dance only (it's more ambient stuff) so using the same oscillators (Hypersaw/Supersaw) for different sounds is not a bad thing. For sure i'll also keep a few sounds with the Virus sample.
I have created a preset where you could change the oscillator detuning by the Modwheel and add the Ensemble effect by Aftertouch.


Ingo

[insigna]

I understand you Ingo.

[Ingonator]

I understand you Ingo.

Thanks.


Ingo

[kv331]

I guess that when all Synthmaster expansions are finished there will be some sounds for almost everything. The features in Synthmaster 2.5 are almost without limit and the things it can't do could be done by importing as a sample or single cycle wave.


Ingo

Psst, we dont have granular synthesis, resampling, and wave morphing yet

Resampling? -> converting a regular sample into a wavesequence.

Morphing? -> based on a time/frequency pattern, just morph between 2 waveforms.