What (if any) advantage would a Virus ti have within a full studio-only PC setup

[koalaboy]

So here I am, looking for a new toy

I like the look of the Virus ti2 desktop, but it occurs to me that it's all digital, and I have a nice powerful PC with (far too) many VSTs and also DSP cards... so would I really gain from the Virus ?

The other options would be something like a Moog Phatty Slim, An Arturia Brute, or some Dave Smith hardware (yeah, I know the prices are all over the shop here, but let's ignore that bit), giving me some analog juicyness to add into the mix.

I don't have any particular 'needs', and music could be all styles - just wondering what people think, and if I'm missing anything regarding the Virus.

I guess that if anything, I would like something 'hands-on' (and have looked at Maschine, Doepfer Dark-Time, etc, but I tend to only write using a keyboard or trackball, so I'm not sure how much they'd be used) which the Virus isn't quite as good at, although it then blows away the 'better' options with the PC integration when needed.

Anyone ?

[JimmiG]

You don't really gain anything per se. The Virus obviously has its own "sound", just like all other synths, analog or digital, plug-in or hardware. It also has a huge library of presets made by some well known producers, so if you're into that kind of thing it's really good.

An analog synth would add some diversity to your setup. Of course that's also a matter of personal opinion. Some swear there's a big difference between "real analog" and virtual analog, while others think emulations are so good these days that you can't hear the difference.

Best is if you can try some of them out for yourself. If you can't do that, listen to as many Youtube and MP3 demos as you can. If you're into programming your own sounds, download the parameter reference manual to gain some more insight.

[aciddose]

you can totally hear the difference between "analog" and "digital" - the problem is that the difference you hear is in a very specific range of sounds that are specifically best suited to one or the other side. there are some sounds analog synthesizers do well, and some digital synthesizers do well with very little cross-over in those particular sounds. other times the cross-over is huge where you can do pretty much anything with either.

http://www.2shared.com/audio/8Tt_v-dL/vco_vs_dco.html

if you can't hear the difference between the first (vco) and second (dco) parts or don't care about it, analog probably isn't for you.

(ok i can't resist explaining it. just listen before you read this, if you do. the vco's edges are more "fuzzy" and less defined. when i listen i can identify this specifically and picture what's going on, but that's probably just through experience. the dco's edges have a more focused buzz to them, not as fuzzy and easier to pick out in time.

the reason for this is the vco is modulated by a combination of a 60hz rectified sine and brown noise. not only that, but the up/down slew rates are different. this combination creates the "fuzzy" effect which makes the "buzz" of the oscillator tone less distinct so it feels as if it blends together more naturally.

this is completely possible in software. it's expensive as hell, but it works brilliantly and creates exactly the same effect. it's just that most software (if not all) will not be doing this. it's also possible to create an analog oscillator which won't have this effect. this is only one effect of countless others which influence the sound of an analog synthesizer and each will apply to specific situations more than others.

if you really don't care about this or assume it will be insignificant, you'd be best to avoid fiddling with analog gear. you probably won't appreciate it. you might get to find you can get better sounds in some cases, but you won't be able to identify why or even care. so in that light it'll be really a waste of time for you.)

[koalaboy]

Thanks for the replies.

I suppose I should have been careful using the word 'analog', as it's not really (and I say this cautiously) about the sound...

Let me explain.

I want some hardware (or a controller) that is very much hands on in the way of controlling, in a straightforward, non-complicated fashion, the basics of synthesis (so Oscillators, filters, etc) whilst *sounding* like a Moog.

I know this is vague, and the answer is probably 'get a Moog', but that's a rough guide to the sounds I like. I like VSTs such as all of the U-he masterpieces, through Alchemy, Tone-2, FXPansion, Spectrasonics, Sylenth, to Tassman, VazMod and my Sonic-Core Modular IV....

So it's more about having a nice desktop 'interface' to play with, that doesn't require (but can benefit from / work well with) a computer for when I want to instantly play, and that makes noises I enjoy, but I can also learn from (my knowledge - and ears - are still basic).

I see a lot of 'raving' about the Virus, but as it's quite a jump in price from my other options (I have thought about a BCR2000, but that's a bit far removed) I'm curious to know if it will be overlapping what I've got too much (even though an analog may also, as I have emulations which I like), or if it's the sort of thing I could really benefit from overall.

Whilst I like the old-fashioned synth sounds (is that better than analog ?), I'm very much a computer person, so whilst I would like to be able to just switch on and 'play' sometimes, it also needs to be an integral part of my computer studio setup - it won't ever move out of the room, or be performed for others.

Hopefully that's helping a bit more.

I shall definitely listen to that comparison when I am able later - I'm curious if I *can* tell now - but it's not really the crux of my decision - the 'interface' or usability, is more important.

I want the biggest knobs possible, and plenty of noodling. That's why I'm asking KVR

(I'm still considering a Eurorack modular, but I'm concerned that as I won't be able to spend for a long while after, it may sit quite 'empty' for a long time)

[JimmiG]

One option might be some older virtual analog synths. There seems to be a trend toward software editors and minimalist hardware interfaces in affordable modern VA synths (Blofeld, Ultranova, M-Audio Venom, Virus TI Snow etc.), probably to keep manufacturing costs down.

Something like a used Novation (Super)Nova/KS, Virus A/B/C (or even TI 1 Desktop), Alesis Ion, Nord Lead, Korg MS2000/Radias etc. would give you a "knobby" interface for much less than the cost of a new Virus TI2. Everything integrates quite well with a computer-based setup using MIDI and analog audio, but only the TI will behave truly like a VST instrument in your DAW.

[kuniklo]

If you want hardware for the hands-on experience then avoid the Virus. Great synth but way too much menu diving.

Go for a Moog Voyager, Nord Lead 2x, or Monomachine.

[koalaboy]

@JimmiG
I do already have a Novation KS5, but wanted something a bit smaller for desktop access. I fancied an Ion, but it's a bit 'flat' for desktop use. The MS2000/JP8080/Radias I could rackmount, and the JP8080 I've always fancied, but I'm not sure I want another VA if it's not well integrated, as that's the only real advantage (IMHO) over an analog device, if it's not trying to be digital.

@kuniklo
Thanks for mentioning the amount of menu diving on the Virus - I had thought that the 'basic' synthesis would be quite easy on the desktop version, but if it's actually hidden away, then that's not really any benefit. I'd love a voyager, but can't afford it

I think the Moog Phatty Slim (not too much diving, big knobs, and some software integration) and a Eurorack Modular (very hands on, limited automation via Expert Sleepers) are currently the main options, though I may think about the JP8080 I guess. I did consider a Supernova to enhance my KS5, as the controls on that are nice and straightforward, but I'm not sure I want 'more of the same', and again, the integration isn't amazing.

[tehlord]

It's worth noting that the integration on the Virus is more fiddly than you'd think, and does't work in the same way as a normal VST plugin. You can only open one instance of the Ti, and then you get 3 outputs for your 16 multi timbral parts. You then have to route those 3 parts into your DAW.

Still, it's the only hardware synth that does it so it's better than nothing I guess.

As far as sound goes, there's no advantage at all. It's just different to other plugins.

My money would go on a Nord Rack 2X and then deal with the bouncing to audio like all the other synths do

[Shy]

My money would not go to Nord Lead/Rack 2X if you want "analog sound" or flexibility, and forget about Slim/Little Phatty, it's not worth it either. I've had both for a long time and I can tell you that you'll get much more enjoyment from a little Doepfer modular synth system (their Basic System 2 for example). You get much more flexibility and nicer sound. I'd go for Synthesizers.com, though.

[kuniklo]

If you can afford a TI2 you can also afford a 2nd hand rackmount Moog Voyager. Great synth.

It's true the Nord doesn't sound particularly analog but it sounds good (IMO) and is hands-down the most immediate hardware VA around. Everything is right in front of you and assigning modulation is a snap. It's an instrument you really play and not just program.

A modular would probably be fun too but that's a whole different experience that appeals more to some people than others.

[koalaboy]

Hmm, lots of people recommending the Nord Rack 2x... Definitely needs investigating ! I hadn't really looked at the front panel, so maybe it's more logical than I expected.

(I'm still kicking myself for not purchasing a Nord G2 Modular keyboard when they came out - I had the chance, and missed it )

@Shy: It'd be Eurorack because that's more compact (I think) and easier to get over here.

@kuniklo: The virus would only be affordable on 'credit' - they don't seem to offer that for second-hand

Modular does appeal - again, it's just cost, over the short term, as I can't afford a 'full' system up-front.

[Shy]

No need for a big modular system anyway. Even with the Doepfer Basic System 2 you get much more than you get with almost any non-modular real (as in no digital envelope bs or whatever) analog synth you can buy nowadays.

[koalaboy]

No need for a big modular system anyway. Even with the Doepfer Basic System 2 you get much more than you get with almost any non-modular real (as in no digital envelope bs or whatever) analog synth you can buy nowadays.

A Basic System 2 is pretty big in my mind (I realise it's tiny compared to many modular setups)

I was thinking more of an A-111-5, and an ES-3 (Maybe a couple more, but that would give me enough to play with). If I go modular, it's definitely start slowly and add gradually.

I know it's a completely different direction to the Virus, but that's why I wanted to make sure I wasn't missing something. The more I think about it, the more I'm convinced (again) it's the way to go. slowly. I should probably cut up my cards now...

[zerocrossing]

I want some hardware (or a controller) that is very much hands on in the way of controlling, in a straightforward, non-complicated fashion, the basics of synthesis (so Oscillators, filters, etc) whilst *sounding* like a Moog.

You sound a lot like me from a few years ago. Here's the conclusions I came to, fwiw...

Software can sound very good and in some ways best hardware (both analog and digital) but in some ways it's lacking. The biggest gap is between an analog and a virtual analog so my advice to you would be to get a Voyager if you like the Moog sound. I have the Voyager's little brother, the Slim Phatty. I dig it a lot... but in many ways I like the budget priced MoPho and it's polyphonic brother the Prophet 08 just as much. In the end they're so different that having a few monosynths isn't actually as redundant as you might think.

For a long while I had a stance that digital was digital, so who needed it? I got rid of my Virus C and I haven't really yearned for getting it back since I started adding back hardware synths to my studio. People say, "it has it's own sound" and I kind of feel that it's so flexible that in some ways it lacks personality by trying to do everything. I think for me having a quirky synth with more personality but limits is better. I kept hearing Nord Lead demos that blew me away so I finally bit the bullet when I found one going for a great price used Nord Lead 2x rack on Craig's List. It sounds fantastic. Clear and rich in a way that does best it's doppelganger Discovery Pro, but the differences are most apparent when using high resonance. A lot of the time I think I'd be hard pressed to tell them apart and of course Discovery Pro has a ton of tricks the Nord can't touch. I bet this is also true for the Virus. You'll get some bump in quality but I think your money will buy you more of something if you were to go for a true analog. Don't listen to the VCO vs DCO debate. I have both and they both sound good for what they're good at and both will trump your software especially considering that the filter is such a huge part of the sound.

[kuniklo]

The thing about the Nord is that it has no onboard effects so it can sound a little dry on its own.

But it *really* comes alive with a little external processing, more so than a lot of other synths. You can get some amazingly lush pads out of it, for instance, with just a little external delay.

It may look like a limited synth at first glance but it really has a lot of range for a relatively simple engine. Listen to Autechre's "Cichli Suite" EP to hear just how far it can be stretched in talented hands. Unlike a lot of other synthmakers, Clavia really makes *instruments* and not just bundles of technology.