Bazzille vs. Zebra... CAGE MATCH!

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OK after sticking my nose in Bazzilla for a few sessions it still makes nowhere near as much sense as Zebra.

Bazzille appears to have some good features, but it also is very "machine" oriented... right down to saggy patch cables first seen in ACE.

All well and good, but the lack of visual feedback, graphic control and other modern aspects available in Zebra... no doubt this is an homage to the lovely euro racks I see people using these days. There is always money to be made giving people familiar things... only natural for a business man to give people what they desire.

But in the long run, it's really computer music we are engaging in when we use a plugin... and I feel more can be done with an approach that favors graphic control in sound creation over knobby emulation. But I also don't want to misperceive Bazzille because I don't think Urs would make it without a good reason.

Zebra (and other U-he products) make good use of clever graphic control to shape sound... I crave a more Zebra like control over Diva every single time I use it... the effects and mods seem to recreate the frustrations found in old synths!

Perhaps Zebra 3 will feature the powerful filters found in Diva as well as the graphic elements that make complex sounds easy (kinda)? One can only hope as Urs has total control over things like this :)

( Urs, have you played with Aalto, by Madrona Labs? It blends a more "computer graphic" oriented interface for a modular synth. )

Still, I can think of lots of reasons why I could be totally wrong... my lack of skill at making complex wiring connections and general confusion when confronted with an un-patched panel in even ACE makes me wonder how the rest of the U-he folks feel.

SO... I offer this arena to fight over it!

What do YOU think... am I crazy? Do 2-D knobs offer something I'm missing?

Or are you all stick-in-the-muds wanting familiarity over new ideas?

LET THE BLOOD SPORT COMMENCE!!

:lol:
Retired, Bored and ready to WRECK the JOINT... gonna drop some OLD-STEP, ya'll!!

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If Bazille was the same as Zebra... what would be special about either?

We do have big plans for Bazille, but they'll move her rather away from Zeebs... much further away :hihi:

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More X v Y threads :phew:

How about Brazil v Zambia ? :wink:
No auto tune...

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Here's something I found showing the "hackable" or hidden features of Casio's CZ range. Figured I'd post it here just on the off chance anything finds it's way into Bazille's oscillators. The idea of being able to choose "silence" as one of the waveforms is one of the more interesting options.

http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic ... 56#5228156
http://sendy.bandcamp.com/releases < My new album at Bandcamp! Now pay what you like!

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Urs wrote:If Bazille was the same as Zebra... what would be special about either?

We do have big plans for Bazille, but they'll move her rather away from Zeebs... much further away :hihi:
You bloody teaser, Urs!

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Bazille vs Zebra...

Why must they fight? I imagine Zebra would be quite happy to symbiotically be a Bazillentraeger.

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Bazille is an extraordinary synth!

I have never used a modular analog so it took me a long time to understand Bazille, how it works, how to do things. It is a rather different concept. Once I became fluid with it though, I started appreciating it more and more. There is lots of functionality and ways of doing things I miss when working in Zebra.

Add in the audio rate capability and there is much that Bazille can do that Zebra cannot. And the sound quality of Bazille is remarkable!

Bazille and Zebra are my two indispensable synths. They compliment each other well...

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I would say that I prefer the cord / patching approach in preference to a fixed routing or (as in the case of Zebra) a modular that hides the connections / emphasising user interface controls. Therefore i'm interested in where Bazille is going.

To further explain:

I own Zebra2 / Tassman 4 / Vaz Modular 3 / Reaktor 5.8 / KarmaFX Modular

I find when I need to make particular sounds for a project I will browse through the presets of Zeb and Tass, modify them slightly and use them.

When I want to be creative, start from scratch I prefer Synths where i'm plugging modules together so I can track the signal and flow. I find this easier to do in Reaktor and KarmaFX. Moderately easy in Vaz. Overly convoluted in Tassman and difficult to follow in Zebra2. While I know that i'm making the same kind of connections in each... i like to be able to see that in the UI.

Having said that I don't like using patch cords just for the sake of trying to emulate a vintage modular (as in the case of Arturia synths). I'd much prefer something new and interesting that is modular.

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TomTwohy wrote:
All well and good, but the lack of visual feedback, graphic control and other modern aspects available in Zebra... no doubt this is an homage to the lovely euro racks I see people using these days. There is always money to be made giving people familiar things... only natural for a business man to give people what they desire.

But in the long run, it's really computer music we are engaging in when we use a plugin... and I feel more can be done with an approach that favors graphic control in sound creation over knobby emulation. But I also don't want to misperceive Bazzille because I don't think Urs would make it without a good reason.

One of the beautiful aspects of Bazille is creating modulations... just one simple example, send an envelop through the quantizer and you have a stepped envelop. Now you could make that envelop shape with an MSEG in Zebra, but it would be complicated. Now modulate the quantizer and try to duplicate that in Zebra!

For another example, take an envelop, multiply it by itself to change its shape, then send it through the quantizer and then a lag generator to smooth its shape a bit... It is easy on the one page interface of Bazille to follow the cord from one module to the other to the other to see the signal path.

If you create a complex chain of modules in Zebra to modulate stuff, it can be harder to follow. It can require one to go to multiple tabs.

What Bazille has is a set of fairly simple tools that can be combined in a wide range of ways to create complex structures. It is a different approach that invites different results.

Bazille also allows feedback loops...

I think the cables are not so much an attempt at emulating a hardware modular as much as they are an attempt to effectively represent the different nature of the functionality in Bazille.

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Thanx for these insights, pdxindy. That gave me some ideas to try. :D
And exactly this is it what I love in Bazille and ACE: Just try some unusual connections and hold your jaw while listening to some interesting stuff. It's Lego on steroids. :love: 8)

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Sendy wrote:Here's something I found showing the "hackable" or hidden features of Casio's CZ range. Figured I'd post it here just on the off chance anything finds it's way into Bazille's oscillators. The idea of being able to choose "silence" as one of the waveforms is one of the more interesting options.

http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic ... 56#5228156
No worries, I've designed a hack to the PD system that goes way beyond that.

(still tempted to add a few more PD-specific hacks...)

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Urs wrote:
Sendy wrote:Here's something I found showing the "hackable" or hidden features of Casio's CZ range. Figured I'd post it here just on the off chance anything finds it's way into Bazille's oscillators. The idea of being able to choose "silence" as one of the waveforms is one of the more interesting options.

http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic ... 56#5228156
No worries, I've designed a hack to the PD system that goes way beyond that.

(still tempted to add a few more PD-specific hacks...)
Great! More is more! :love:
http://sendy.bandcamp.com/releases < My new album at Bandcamp! Now pay what you like!

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Sendy wrote:
Urs wrote:
Sendy wrote:Here's something I found showing the "hackable" or hidden features of Casio's CZ range. Figured I'd post it here just on the off chance anything finds it's way into Bazille's oscillators. The idea of being able to choose "silence" as one of the waveforms is one of the more interesting options.

http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic ... 56#5228156
No worries, I've designed a hack to the PD system that goes way beyond that.

(still tempted to add a few more PD-specific hacks...)
Great! More is more! :love:
Your link is pretty cool. I knew about three or four more waveforms but I didn't know that the windows can be selected with any waveform.

I'll try it on my CZ-1000 once I'm back from vacation :)

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pdxindy,

Unfortunately, you are ignoring the simple fact that one can just as easily silence a patch on a modular with this "gee what if I try this?" idea.

I tried to make that patch idea work, but all I got was a weird little sound... obviously you know more than me, but your example proves my point. It depended on familiarity more than control... I had MSEG jumping all over the place my first day... compared to the generator in Bazzille only has one @#$%^ knob :x

There is nothing more frustrating than not knowing how to determine what is prewired, what is patchable and how it might break without slogging thru frustrating silence... experimenting in patches all day can lead to headaches as well as delights.

You also complain about opening a panel or page to do something in Zebra... well I prefer that to dealing with a nest of messy cables in front of my dial settings. Cables can be fun to work with, tracing them is MUCH easier in Aalto... the cable sit in a bay and cross neatly providing less confusion.

Image

But Aalto is too cool to work with others... it is an "art" machine and is not made to co-operate with much (only one routable midi cc input??), ACE is much more co-operative... as is Bazzille... but Zebra is much better (at least in my set up) at such co-operation.

I see what you are saying about flexibility, but there should be some consideration of combining patch-ability AND new types of interfaces (like the MSEG variants on the idea). Why not push for both?

Absynth can clearly link up various kinds of MSEG-like envelopes... I disagree with the idea that a nest of patch cables is more useful than control this tight:



I just can't imagine Bazzille doing a synth "vocal" like Zebra can... not without more real control.

Elbow Drop and SUPLEX COMBO!!!
Retired, Bored and ready to WRECK the JOINT... gonna drop some OLD-STEP, ya'll!!

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TomTwohy wrote:
I just can't imagine Bazzille doing a synth "vocal" like Zebra can... not without more real control.
Here are 2 of my 'vocal' type presets in Bazille

http://draigathar.org/sounds/Bazille3.wav
http://draigathar.org/sounds/Bazille45.mp3

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