Satin...when?

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sascha wrote:
Dip200 wrote:How much control does the user have over the speed ? Is it possible to sync the delay or change speed in milliseconds ?
The delay time is a function of tape speed & the distance from the rec head to the repro head, hence we have two controls.
Of course, tape speed also affects the overall character, the frequency response, saturation etc.
The 'distance' knobs of the 4 taps we have in the delay mode can be set to 'inches', currently.
At the moment, we have no sync function for the two parts, as we haven't found the 'perfect' work flow yet. Thing is, on Satin, 'speed' isn't just a switch; it can speed up & slow down *continuously*, all the way from 7.5 up to 30ips. The 'distance' can be set from 0 to 5 inches. Using a 'sync' button would make the speed control snap to positions where - apart from just delaying the audio - the resulting frequency response and overall texture might not match anymore with what you'd like to achieve.
But we do keep on thinking about this issue (is it really one?).
Good points Sascha, but imho that simply calls for adding (at least) one more control, to set the 'lag' / 'response time' (for lack of a better term) for the tape (= delay) speed and/or the 'distance' of the heads (= delay taps) to adjust to changes (and perhaps another separate control for its response time when it is adjusting to clock tempo changes).

Moreover, preferably a tempo syncing feature would not 'snap' to musical time values only, but also allows to select all intermediate values between 'exact' musical time values. Perhaps you could use a 'soft snap' function for exact musical values, using a modifier key to select intermediate values. To me, it would be very useful if the GUI provides a clear indication of musical time + offset, and if it adjusts tempo in sync with the incoming (master) clock signal. Neither would require strict snapping to exact musical values, as far as I can see.

(And, yes, imho it really is an issue - or rather, a still missing yet very desirable feature for Satin's delay mode. Some other good tape delay plug-ins do have some sort of tempo sync option that handles synced tempo changes quite elegantly. Would some example screen caps perhaps be useful to illustrate?)

Btw, wouldn't it also be cool if we could slow down the tape to a full stop (i.e. all the way down to 0 ips)? Even if that would perhaps not be perfectly realistic, I bet it would still provide us with some great 'tape stop' effects. And for some tape 'scratching', how about negative speeds, i.e. reversing the direction (cf. Permut8 for an illustrative example that has nothing to do with tape)? :D

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sascha wrote:
Dip200 wrote:But we do keep on thinking about this issue (is it really one?).
I don't think it's a huge issue. It's convenient, sure, but setting up a delay by ear should not be to hard.

I think the most important thing is to give the user a fine control over the delay times, aka the tape speed and the distance of the heads, so that it is possible to make the taps fit every song tempo perfectly without having to add automation to keep things somewhat in sync (and in sync can also mean a bit off of course). This means, that the delay times should be adjustable as fine as milliseconds imho.

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Dip200 wrote:[...] I don't think it's a huge issue. It's convenient, sure, but setting up a delay by ear should not be to hard. [...]
Agreed. It's just a matter of convenience. Nice to have rather than must have.

I'm quite sure Satin would be absolutely lovely without any synced delay feature whatsoever. But adding parameters later on may be a bit more problematic, so I would figure it's preferable to have this discussion sooner rather than later.

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Nice video demonstrating the use of tape delay (including reversing the direction!):


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sascha wrote:But we do keep on thinking about this issue (is it really one?).
Been thinking about it and, wow, you're right, it does get nasty :lol:

What about modified clicks with snapping behavior when dragging the distance slider? Shift-click for tempo sync, alt-click for 10-ms, shift-alt for 1-ms snapping or something. The 'distance' stays in inches at the end of the operation, but no need for user calculations, and things stay constrained to the 0-5" range.

Would love to see a 'speed mod' with, like, a -/+ 50% range (like so many classic tape echos, or Uhbik-D), also. (I don't think I'd mind if the knob misreported something like, -50% on 8 IPS still ends up at 7.5 IPS ... dunno)

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I think Slate VTM is something completely different than Satin. It gives you the sound of certain vintage tape machines. It's quick and easy.

Satin is a tool that begs to be tweaked. We don't know if we (or anyone) can make it sound like the very same tape machines that Slate VTM models.

That in mind I think it's a question of taste or preference.

- Urs

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TheoM wrote:well if that's the case then i have the wrong idea about satin. I want an authentic tape emulation.. begs to be tweaked for tape? i think i got excited for something that won't suit me.. oh well...

can it do what you would call absolutely 100% authentic tape emulation for the purposes a large proportion of people would want.. to simply make their track sound as id it's been recorded on analog tape?
If I might say, perhaps you are getting disappointed prematurely as well. :lol:

If I understand it correctly, the "tweaking" in Satin is more about designing your own custom tape machine. To make an example with famous filters, if you have a classic moog filter and the korg ms-20 filter, but you want something in between, then you would "tweak" the parameters to get you a hybrid moog/ms-20 filter. Satin, if I am correct, is the machine that let's you do that, but with tape characteristics.

I believe there are supposed to be emulations of different reel sizes, tape sizes, etc, and you should be able to mix and match those to get a unique sound, but that is still "tape" in nature.

Of course, if anyone from u-he would like to interject and make any corrections/explanations, that'd be great.

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Let's not be too complicated.
Satin is designed to be a 'tape construction kit', a 'machine', where 'machine' could be any machine within the parameter range that we allow. Out of the box, with the default settings, it boots up with quite conservative params set for a traditional 15ips recording device, with NAB calibration for a bit of low-end oomph and plenty of HF clarity. But there a many ways to go from there. I'd assume it will always still sound like 'our' device to some extent, but we give you many degrees of freedom to twist things around, such as arbitrary speed settings, variable pre-emphasis, independent rec & repro EQ settings and the 'service' mode.
Sascha Eversmeier [formerly digitalfishphones]
TOURAGE DSP
croquesolid drum processor- mix real drums fast & focused

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