Clipping vs. Limiting

[elassi]

Today I've spent some time to find out about the difference between clipping and limiting (driven by a mastering tutorial). I'm not sure if I understand it at the moment but meanwhile I was looking for clipping tool(s) in the TotalBundle. I found that MMultiBandLimiter offers three "Clip"-Modes but I'm wondering if this deals with the a.m. question.

So, someone here to enlighten me about this? From the "Q-Order-Bandwith-Pole"-thread I learned that there are some smart guys that explain these complicate things in a quite simple manner.

[Tricky-Loops]

This is an older thread but the replies are still up to date:

http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=298645

Especially the description of Kim LaJoie is pretty good:

http://kimlajoie.wordpress.com/2009/07/ ... s-clipping

The only thing that has changed is that more and more people are using clippers instead of limiters (some use even both of them). They can be used to get some db extra gain. Some clippers nowadays have many features like the ClipShifter by LVC Audio...

[elassi]

Thanks Tricky, I'm going to check your links.

Edit: yep, the tutorial I was watching used both a clipper and a limiter. That initially made me curious about this topic.

[Groovy1]

TRY HARMONIC SATURATORS TO BOOST THE FREQUENCY RANGE CONTENT AND FILL OUT THE MIX LIKE AN OLD ANALOG SUMMING DESK IF YOU DO IT CORRECTLY SOMETIMES YOUDONT EVEN NEED A LIMITER AND BELIEVE ME ONCE YOU HAVE MASTERED THE MECHANICS OF THAT YOU WILL BE A LEAGUE ABOVE ALL THOSE THAT SWEAR BY PUSHING THE LIMITERS THAT COMPLETELY DESTROY THE DYNAMIC RANGE BY OVERCOMPRESSION IN A BID FOR LOUDNESS, TRY KLANGHELM ivgi FOR SMOOTH CONSOLE SATURATION AT THE END OF EVERY FX CHAIN ON EVERY CHANNEL

[Tricky-Loops]

TRY HARMONIC SATURATORS TO BOOST THE FREQUENCY RANGE CONTENT AND FILL OUT THE MIX LIKE AN OLD ANALOG SUMMING DESK IF YOU DO IT CORRECTLY SOMETIMES YOUDONT EVEN NEED A LIMITER AND BELIEVE ME ONCE YOU HAVE MASTERED THE MECHANICS OF THAT YOU WILL BE A LEAGUE ABOVE ALL THOSE THAT SWEAR BY PUSHING THE LIMITERS THAT COMPLETELY DESTROY THE DYNAMIC RANGE BY OVERCOMPRESSION IN A BID FOR LOUDNESS, TRY KLANGHELM ivgi FOR SMOOTH CONSOLE SATURATION AT THE END OF EVERY FX CHAIN ON EVERY CHANNEL

I cannot imagine that using a saturator makes the limiter useless...

[Groovy1]

[quote="Tricky-Loops"][quote="Groovy1"]TRY HARMONIC SATURATORS TO BOOST THE FREQUENCY RANGE CONTENT AND FILL OUT THE MIX LIKE AN OLD ANALOG SUMMING DESK IF YOU DO IT CORRECTLY SOMETIMES YOUDONT EVEN NEED A LIMITER AND BELIEVE ME ONCE YOU HAVE MASTERED THE MECHANICS OF THAT YOU WILL BE A LEAGUE ABOVE ALL THOSE THAT SWEAR BY PUSHING THE LIMITERS THAT COMPLETELY DESTROY THE DYNAMIC RANGE BY OVERCOMPRESSION IN A BID FOR LOUDNESS, TRY KLANGHELM ivgi FOR SMOOTH CONSOLE SATURATION AT THE END OF EVERY FX CHAIN ON EVERY CHANNEL[/quote]I cannot imagine that using a saturator makes the limiter useless... :?[/quote]

NO,I WAS SAYING THAT THE HARMONICS RAISE THE OVERALL LEVEL TO NEAR COMMERCIAL LOUDNESS ANYWAYWHEN APPLIED CORRECTLY TO EACH MIX TRACK LIKE ANALOG SUMMING DOES TO FILL OUT THE AUDIO SPECTRUM LIKE DISTORTION AND THEN IT IS PAST TO THE MASTERING ENGINEER TO APPLY A PROPER MASTERING LIMITER, I COULD SHOW YOU IF YOU LIKE 8)

[elassi]

Well, those few posts were quite helpful. Kim Lajoie made me understand much better and the hint about saturation led me to *tadada* the MMultiBandSaturator which has a couple of presets dealing with it (read it from the names containing "clip" or "clipper").

Now need to do a couple of hearing sessions to explore the promised magic.

Thanks a bunch, folks!

[Tricky-Loops]

Now need to do a couple of hearing sessions to explore the promised magic.

If you've explored the magic of using saturators instead of limiters to fill out the frequency ranges and gains, lemme know!

I'm still not able to make use of this suggestion. While I'm against over-compressing, over-limiting and over-clipping, I still consider limiters & clippers as necessary when used reasonable...

The more harmonies you introduce with saturation, the more you should use a limiter/clipper, IMHO.

[CableChannel]

Naaah I think thats not true. Saturation itself is limiting the dynamics, so you don't need to apply more limiting. The contrary. If you use more saturation, you need less additional limiting.

Excitation on the other hand just introduces harmonics, it does not change the dynamics. So its the same here, you don't need more limiting if you do excitation. Of course excitation raises total level so the limiter will automatically work a little more, but you don't need to change any settings.

[Tricky-Loops]

Naaah I think thats not true. Saturation itself is limiting the dynamics, so you don't need to apply more limiting.

Nope, saturation itself doesn't limit anything, especially not digital saturation.

Tape simulations (which include emulations of tape dynamics & saturation) DO have a compressing effect - like FerricTDS and Reelbus.

So we can agree that by using tape simulations (or even analog tapes) you need less additional compressing & limiting. But not with saturators only.

[CableChannel]

afaik saturation refers to the saturation of tape or tube meaning compression effect which at the same time introduces some distortion/harmonics.

Do you have plugin examples for the "dynamicless" saturation you are talking about? I think that does not exist, I think you are talking about excitation!

[Tricky-Loops]

Do you have plugin examples for the "dynamicless" saturation you are talking about?

Of course, right here from Meldaproduction:

MMultiBandSaturator

It is a saturation effect (for introducing harmonics and emulating the famous "analog warmth"), but it has nothing to do with compressing & limiting.

Maybe Vojtech can say something about it...

[cron]

TRY HARMONIC SATURATORS TO BOOST THE FREQUENCY RANGE CONTENT AND FILL OUT THE MIX LIKE AN OLD ANALOG SUMMING DESK IF YOU DO IT CORRECTLY SOMETIMES YOUDONT EVEN NEED A LIMITER AND BELIEVE ME ONCE YOU HAVE MASTERED THE MECHANICS OF THAT YOU WILL BE A LEAGUE ABOVE ALL THOSE THAT SWEAR BY PUSHING THE LIMITERS THAT COMPLETELY DESTROY THE DYNAMIC RANGE BY OVERCOMPRESSION IN A BID FOR LOUDNESS, TRY KLANGHELM ivgi FOR SMOOTH CONSOLE SATURATION AT THE END OF EVERY FX CHAIN ON EVERY CHANNEL

I cannot imagine that using a saturator makes the limiter useless...

NO,I WAS SAYING THAT THE HARMONICS RAISE THE OVERALL LEVEL TO NEAR COMMERCIAL LOUDNESS ANYWAYWHEN APPLIED CORRECTLY TO EACH MIX TRACK LIKE ANALOG SUMMING DOES TO FILL OUT THE AUDIO SPECTRUM LIKE DISTORTION AND THEN IT IS PAST TO THE MASTERING ENGINEER TO APPLY A PROPER MASTERING LIMITER, I COULD SHOW YOU IF YOU LIKE

Zero dynamic range.

[Tricky-Loops]

TRY HARMONIC SATURATORS TO BOOST THE FREQUENCY RANGE CONTENT AND FILL OUT THE MIX LIKE AN OLD ANALOG SUMMING DESK IF YOU DO IT CORRECTLY SOMETIMES YOUDONT EVEN NEED A LIMITER AND BELIEVE ME ONCE YOU HAVE MASTERED THE MECHANICS OF THAT YOU WILL BE A LEAGUE ABOVE ALL THOSE THAT SWEAR BY PUSHING THE LIMITERS THAT COMPLETELY DESTROY THE DYNAMIC RANGE BY OVERCOMPRESSION IN A BID FOR LOUDNESS, TRY KLANGHELM ivgi FOR SMOOTH CONSOLE SATURATION AT THE END OF EVERY FX CHAIN ON EVERY CHANNEL

I cannot imagine that using a saturator makes the limiter useless...

NO,I WAS SAYING THAT THE HARMONICS RAISE THE OVERALL LEVEL TO NEAR COMMERCIAL LOUDNESS ANYWAYWHEN APPLIED CORRECTLY TO EACH MIX TRACK LIKE ANALOG SUMMING DOES TO FILL OUT THE AUDIO SPECTRUM LIKE DISTORTION AND THEN IT IS PAST TO THE MASTERING ENGINEER TO APPLY A PROPER MASTERING LIMITER, I COULD SHOW YOU IF YOU LIKE

Zero dynamic range.

ANALOG SUMMING WITH CAPTAIN CAPS LOCK?

[djanthonyw]

How does Pro-L function as a clipper compared to a dedicated clipper? Also, what dedicated clipper options are there in AU format besides Stillwell's and IK's?