why do our scales have seven notes?? and not 8, 9, 10 or 11?

[bradleyfilms]

venus and uranus are the same.

I love quoting out of context. Apart from they're roughly spherical, how are they the same to anything, especially each other?

who can say?

Probably the people that have looked at them.
Don't forget that Venus has been visited (well, landed upon). Uranus has had a close flyby, and it's weird.
Steve

[lotus2035]

torturing your brain

This pretty much *sums up* mathematics.

[jancivil]

jancivil, you can approximate irrational ratios by setting some upper limit.

AAAAND what you actually instructed - PRESCRIBED - to do was "calculate the actual ratios [in 12ET]"

I gave you the just-intonation that I personally prefer because it more closely approximates 12TET (if I recall correctly) than that on the wiki page. Ratios with an upper limit like 1000000 are more difficult to work with.

Who do you expect you are kidding, again? What do you prefer it FOR?

You obviously have no idea what you're talking about and have never really looked into this stuff before.

Obvious to whom? You're doing 'I'm rubber you're glue' now. I use this stuff all the time. Which is to say I create ratio-based intonation to suit actual musical ideas in pieces of music. I have looked into it first 30+ yrs ago. What in what I have said do you found wanting? So your ass is red from the spanking you got, too bad. You're just bullshitting. I hate bullshit, nothing particularly personal about this but you're insulting my and anyone in the know's intelligence with this flagrant fraudulence.

TO WIT:

It is no coincidence that the ratios for "black keys" are much larger than those for "whole tones". The result is that they sound "in between" the whole ratios and this fact has been observed over time in various just intonations as they moved toward approximating equal temperament.

The black keys? In a ratio to what other key, black or white? Are you pulling my leg? This is just word salad. 'whole ratios'? This is like a baffle them with bullshit trip. I wouldn't think you're stupid like this, are you simply trolling me for laughs?

Also, you seem intent to focus on the how rather than the why and you use it as an explanation.

You tossed a premise as to why 12. Maybe someone else has the same notion. Maybe there's a big cosmic reason the zodiac uses 12, as well. I think the way you went about it comes across as fatuous to the point of nearly comical though. Maybe you're swift enough to notice there are other people here that take that whole kind of 'why' as a joke. Maybe not.

The question here is not how, but why.

This is where BULLSHIT comes into play. You don't seem even to grasp the logical problem of cart-before-the-horse. The things you say do NOT reveal you as the one guy here that has a grip. You look like an idiot. You're not the only one, it's as if I stumbled into an alternative universe where the names for things preceded necessarily the things-in-themselves. Your 'why' is every bit as good as 'there are seven because the next one is the octave'.

[crazyfiltertweaker]

Nice answers but most of the answers tell me how to do it, but not WHY. But "why is my question.

This seems like the answer you're looking for:

http://thinkzone.wlonk.com/Music/12Tone.htm

This explains it for 12 tones and I know this, but thanks anyway
I will repeat it, maybe someone has a idea:


WHY do our western main scales have 7 notes, not 8, 9, 10 or 11 notes? What is wrong with these addional notes?

[aciddose]

Your 'why' is every bit as good as 'there are seven because the next one is the octave'.

So in other words you have no idea why.

Actually, my "why" is a perfectly valid factual explanation. 12TET happens to be the best possible fit between "just" fractions and a common ratio between all notes.

The seven notes are all very close to "just" ratios while the accents / sharps / etc are slightly "off" and tend to sound in-between. Although a couple are also close, they're not "as close".

You're picking out little straw-men while doing an amusing little dance to avoid ever coming close to the real core of the issue here - why do we use 12TET and not 13TET ? Why 12?

Just either admit you don't know and go mope about somewhere else, or try to contribute something useful to the thread, please?

[aciddose]

WHY do our western main scales have 7 notes, not 8, 9, 10 or 11 notes? What is wrong with these addional notes?

That is a completely different question than what I've been concerned with.

I'd note that 7 is very near to 6, so although I haven't put much effort into this area I suspect immediately that your answer is found here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regression_toward_the_mean

The majority of scales will have 5, 6 or 7 notes because there are more variations available than for other numbers.

We're not considering transposed scales as unique, right? So if you have either less than six or more than six notes in your scale you'll decrease the number of unique scales available, rapidly.

The tendency toward 7 rather than 1/2 of 12 is most likely because it has the extra note. Most likely pressure due to the limitations of 6-note scales and the more limited melodies you can create using them.

Although it's also possible that there are more variations for 7 than for 6. Doing the math here would likely lend some insight.

Scales can be broken down to gaps.

The only unique property of a scale, once transpositions are not considered unique, is the number and position of gaps in the scale.

C-Maj for example would be: 1101110.

Start from C, 1 means skip a note, 0 means take the next note.

C,
skip C#,
D,
skip D#,
E,
F,
skip F#,
G,
skip G#,
A,
skip A#,
B,
C

[murnau]

Your 'why' is every bit as good as 'there are seven because the next one is the octave'.

you dont get it. octave double the frequency but at the end it's the same note like the first in the scale just higher - it makes perfect sense that the scale can only have seven notes before and not eight, nine or whatever when the octave is the 1st note of the new scale otherwise it wouldnt be the octave.
octave is the eight. check heptatonic min/maj Pythagorea tune - end of story.

[Tricky-Loops]

octave double the frequency but at the end it's the same note like the first in the scale just higher - it makes perfect sense that the scale can only have seven notes before and not eight, nine or whatever when the octave is the 1st note of the new scale otherwise it wouldnt be the octave.
octave is the eight. check heptatonic min/maj Pythagorea tune - end of story.

That would be the answer to the question "Why is the eighth note called 'Octave'?"

But the one who discovered the relation between mathematics (ratios) and music was our old Greek friend Pythagoras, and every Western scale builds upon this.

Why did he invent this tuning system? Probably because he experimented with ratios and these sounded best in his ears...

With 8 notes it's easier to make good sounding melodies and chords than maybe with 10 notes, because of the ratios. Otherwise there would be much more dissonance.

But -- if everyone would use 10 or 11 notes instead of 8, our ears might get used to it some time and it wouldn't sound that strange anymore.

[IncarnateX]

Western scales has 7 notes because God wants it to be like that. It has nothing to do with the math, preferences, history or culture. 7 is a holy number while for instance pentagonic music like blues is the music of the devil. However now a days the devil even use 7 notes becaue he is getting stronger each day. Just look at all music that are not made to praise God but to serve the greed, violence and lust of the devil. The world is coming to an end and you will all be very very sorry.

[murnau]

That would be the answer to the question "Why is the eighth note called 'Octave'?"

what you are talking about?

[Tricky-Loops]

That would be the answer to the question "Why is the eighth note called 'Octave'?"

what you are talking about?

octave double the frequency but at the end it's the same note like the first in the scale just higher - it makes perfect sense that the scale can only have seven notes before and not eight, nine or whatever when the octave is the 1st note of the new scale otherwise it wouldnt be the octave. octave is the eight.

[murnau]

That would be the answer to the question "Why is the eighth note called 'Octave'?"

what you are talking about?

octave double the frequency but at the end it's the same note like the first in the scale just higher - it makes perfect sense that the scale can only have seven notes before and not eight, nine or whatever when the octave is the 1st note of the new scale otherwise it wouldnt be the octave. octave is the eight.

i see you get it.

[stringtapper]

WHY do our western main scales have 7 notes, not 8, 9, 10 or 11 notes? What is wrong with these addional notes?

That is a completely different question than what I've been concerned with.

Which seems kind of odd considering it was the OP's main question.

[IncarnateX]

Yes I know 12 tones are chromatic and atonal. But every other amount is not chromatic, why 7 notes? And why two half steps?

Premise is wrong. There are a good deal of scales that do not consist of 7 notes. Count them yourself:



Ain't it simple as that?

[Tricky-Loops]

Let's look how Mr. Pythagoras, our old Greek friend, has founded the Western tuning system:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pythagorean_hammers