why our scales have seven notes, part 2

[jancivil]

If you start with the following rules:

- No clusters (ie no consecutive half steps)
- Scale isn't a subset of some other scale that doesn't have clusters (so pentatonic scales are excluded because they're subsets of the major/minor scale)

But they aren't necessarily subsets of major/minor. In too many cases they have no particular relationship even, having predated that paradigm by centuries if not millenia. Do you not see that dismissing pentatonics during this 'essentialist' argument for heptatonics is begging the question?

You're trying to describe a cart pulling a horse. The entire exercise you're about here is carts asked to pull the horse. WHY would we start with the cart of 'no clusters'? It follows another cart, which was pulled by events and culture. What use does this have? Just as the person originating this thread did, you're acting like a description of a selection of things that went on is essential and rule-making itself. This is an error.

Clusters of semitones are rather very dissonant (you can't normally use them in jazz harmonization for instance, even though you can use practically any other chord that doesn't have a minor 9th), and are rather strange melodically (though blues scales make really good use of them). IMHO because of those limitations, they end up being rather rare around the world (same reason why there are very few languages with clicks - they are kinda hard to pronounce).

Obviously you absolutely don't _have_ to completely "fill in all the notes" of the scale, which is why pentatonic scales are so common. But if you do fill in all the notes, then 7 notes is the point where it starts making a lot less sense to an extra note more, which I think is why 7 note systems are so common around the world.

You're chasing your own tail in the worst way here.

First of all 'clusters' is really a term to describe tones in vertical relationship. I didn't harp on this but it's a further indicator of your thinking being inextricable from harmonic music, which exposed the bias which has you going around in a circle. There is no 'dissonance' in a scale. "Dissonance" has meaning vis a vis vertical (sounding tones at the same time) relationship, strictly. One can make actual choices either way, dissonance or not, from the material in a scale, working out the vertical.

I said to you, follow your own advice and 'just try it'. There is no actual result shown here regarding the harmonic problems of these things in [ET] scales. I don't know where you come up with that at all, really. "jazz" practice LIKES dissonance unless you're talking about trad jazz or some old cornball shit, anyway. This gets zero traction with me.

The reasons for 'pentatonic' action is because you don't have to fill in all the steps? You would do well for yourself if you take seriously what I do harp on: you're demanding carts pull the horse.

[jancivil]

If you want to view music as an irrational art-form you're free to delude yourself, just go do it in some corner somewhere away from the rest of us please.

More pseudo-scientific nonsense. First of all, indeterminism does not equal irrationality. Secondly, most forms of historicism are only partly indeterministic to the extent that they believe the course of the future cannot be predicted (and guess what: No predictions of the future from determinists have yet disproved this premise). However causes are believed to exist, namely those of human activity in which experimentation, trial-and-error, coincidence, fantasy and imagination as well as purely pragmatic reasons grounded in the needs of daily living play a major part.
And then your link to the Cartesian mind-body problem: What does this has to do with anything? Actually the materialistic historicism of people like Marx and Darwin did indeed became a revolt against any kind of idealism. Including that of Descartes and mathematically minded Platonists, which paradoxically would apply to yourself to the extent you think development of human culture is determined by mathematical ideas.

Do you even know that disciplines such as nonlinear mathematics or quantum mechanics deal with indeterministic systems from a strictly scientific point of view? (the article you linked actually mentions it but you only read the headlines, don't you?)

Unlike Jancivil I have no personal issues with you but you have indeed more than once proven that you are no educated scientist at my time at KVR despite your efforts to pretend you know all by linking random wiki articles in random threads. Stick to coding and compressors and stop making a fool of yourself.

This is actually a kind advice and no personal attack.

My problem with Mr Dose is the ludricrous shite he tries to pass here. He as a personality is not the issue, but it compounds the problem for me, particularly this. I'm not the one that doesn't belong here. A dogmatism based in premises which are fraught with circular logic (and that I think were ad hoc to begin with), "rational". My ass.

Thank you for defining a number of the terms he uses incompetently and fatuously here.

The things I have posted in these threads make sense, are products of reasoning, and are based in years of patient study. Mr Dose has in every case simply pulled shit out of his ass based in, what, a view of himself top down.

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/evo ... ger-effect
----

A dogmatism based in premises which are fraught with circular logic (and that I think were ad hoc to begin with), "rational".

- refers strictly to 'aciddose's offerings in thread one.

The other problem is a couple of people acting like a description of results answers the question of 'why seven'. This vacates all of what happened in favor of a unified field type of theory and it vacates all the instances of people making other choices and arriving at 'six' or 'five' and is working really in terms of 'twelve' anyway. As at least one person has pointed out, one of the results in the field you're hoping to reverse engineer into the answer is 'nine', the melodic minor JS Bach seemed to embrace rather in a fullness.

[SJ_Digriz]

When I was 9 or 10 going through these theory questions, the best answer I got was "because 6 just wasn't enough, and 8 was too many to keep track of". Still a good answer once you really think about it.

[jancivil]

That discards all of the pentatonic and hexatonic-based music and is obviously addressing only a narrow set of musics in the world to begin with, which has been dealt with in this thread and then some. "Six just isn't enough" seems quite a stupid remark, frankly. Except whoever said it was talking to children. At any rate it's ignorant.

[macmurphy]

a very interesting thread that would be better without the petty undertones.

[aciddose]

When I was 9 or 10 going through these theory questions, the best answer I got was "because 6 just wasn't enough, and 8 was too many to keep track of". Still a good answer once you really think about it.

It actually is the answer when you apply some axioms. Some people are unable to comprehend why you'd want to apply axioms or that their use in a particular explanation is required for any logic to be applied, but hopefully anyone who isn't brainless gets along just fine

[IncarnateX]

It actually is the answer when you apply some axioms. Some people are unable to comprehend why you'd want to apply axioms or that their use in a particular explanation is required for any logic to be applied, but hopefully anyone who isn't brainless gets along just fine

Oh Yeah. You mean sensible axioms like this

Similar to how 360 degrees are divided well by many integers, 12 semitones line up nearest to the desired integer fractions.

"desired integer fractions?" Desired by who?

and just as sensible deductions like this

7 is only one step away from 6.

Pulled right out of...well Jancivil has an idea where they come from. No need for me to repeat the obvious.

But most importantly your genius is revealed by deeply scientific statements like this in which you claim that your theory (whatever that is) doesn't need proof because you "feel" it is right and reflects reality.

My theory explains those facts. I'm open to a better theory, or mathematical proof of my own theory. Am I willing to do it? Why should I? honestly don't care whether it's truly accurate or not. I know it reflects reality, I know there is no better explanation available and I feel it is very likely to be accurate.

Yeah

Must admire your courage to show up again after all this nonsense. The beauty of ultimate denial.

Oh and for the purpose of education: Rene Descartes is actually referred to as the most well known founder of rationalist philosophy. And you linked him as an example of non-rational indeterminism (you clown)! It is actually rationalistic indeterminism if anything at all. Tsk tsk tsk. NOT PASSED! Try again next term!

Well if you REALLY want to make a fool of yourself what prick am I to advise you to do otherwise? Suit yourself you f**ked up flying freakshow and thanks for the entertainment.

[vurt]

would be better without the petty undertones.

welcome to kve

[IncarnateX]

would be better without the petty undertones.

welcome to kve

That is KVR and not KVE. Get it right you idiot.

[vurt]

[theodore_whitmore]

KVR. Where one slip of the typing finger marks a man as unworthy, in perpetuity. I have no worries. I'm a peovrn idiot, many times ovre.

Have we now demonstrated the veracity or falsity of every claim, to our personal satisfaction? Good. I have my own theory, remarkably simple. 'Our scales' have seven notes because NOONE LISTENS TO MUSIC. Break out of that diatonic orthodoxy and your listeners might be forced to pay attention because your music sounds different to the normal stuff, maybe even unsettling. A crass social faux pas.

Just look at those virgin-slaughtering, satanic metallers with their tattoos and wild chromatic riffs. Unsettling.

I'm pretty sure most musicians don't listen that much either. Are you using those seven note scales because they are the best notes, or because they kind of sound like music, you know?

My solution is that of a tin-eared pragmatist. I use as few notes as possible. Really, one is plenty most of the time. You won't pin me down to some artificial intervallic construct. But hey, we know I'm an idiot.

On a point of interest, does anyone have knowledge of the overtone series of the typical gamelan instruments and how that may tie into the particular interval relationships in gamelan music?

[aciddose]

Oh and for the purpose of education: Rene Descartes is actually referred to as the most well known founder of rationalist philosophy. And you linked him as an example of non-rational indeterminism (you clown)! It is actually rationalistic indeterminism if anything at all. Tsk tsk tsk. NOT PASSED! Try again next term!

Do you ever say anything that makes sense?

Rationalistic indeterminism?

No wait, so things are not determined based upon past events, therefore you have free-will, am i right?

Okay now, free will to do what? You've just said you can't influence anything, so what use is this will of yours?

Turns out this is all complete nonsense and any rational person should immediately realize such "problems" are purely invented. Mind body problem? This isn't a problem until you invent it.

The arguments I've seen here against applying any sort of rationalization to music, for religious causes and philosophy about entirely imaginary concepts all seem to be rooted in the lack of a functioning brain.

[macmurphy]

would be better without the petty undertones.

welcome to kve

i know, i know.. it's just getting tiresome.

[IncarnateX]

Oh and for the purpose of education: Rene Descartes is actually referred to as the most well known founder of rationalist philosophy. And you linked him as an example of non-rational indeterminism (you clown)! It is actually rationalistic indeterminism if anything at all. Tsk tsk tsk. NOT PASSED! Try again next term!

Do you ever say anything that makes sense?

Rationalistic indeterminism?

No wait, so things are not determined based upon past events, therefore you have free-will, am i right?

Okay now, free will to do what? You've just said you can't influence anything, so what use is this will of yours?

Turns out this is all complete nonsense and any rational person should immediately realize such "problems" are purely invented. Mind body problem? This isn't a problem until you invent it.

The arguments I've seen here against applying any sort of rationalization to music, for religious causes and philosophy about entirely imaginary concepts all seem to be rooted in the lack of a functioning brain.

Don't even try loser! Whether you believe in free will or not does not have anyhting to do wheher you are rational or not. And it was you who linked the mind-body problem, not me. Trying to turn things 180 degrees or have you just no clue of what you are posting as usual? And yur understanding of Descartes is way below high school level. Actually no level at all. Your strawmans are just as pathetic as your face-saving attemps in general: If one BS statement is teared down, just make another and keep it going until people give up right

[aciddose]

You probably don't understand that descartes was a fool.

The very same argument you attempt to use (although fail at miserably) against application of math to answer specific questions such as "why are 7-note scales more prevalent than others?", "putting the cart before the horse" is one that descartes is guilty of in nearly every aspect of his philosophy.

The mind body problem does not exist unless you start out with the assumption that "mind" exists. There is no definition for "mind" without religion. It is entirely invented. Regardless of whether you're rationalist or empiricist (I consider this to be an invented distinction as well...) there have never been any experiments proposed to test whether a "mind" exists further than just going with the usual axiom "I think therefore I am."

That is one "problem" descartes was surely aware of as he makes it quite clear himself over and over again while resisting the obvious answer due to his religious beliefs.

Why do you show such fear?

12TET and 7-tone scales do exist. Look out a window.