why our scales have seven notes, part 2

[IncarnateX]

You probably don't understand that descartes was a fool.

The very same argument you attempt to use (although fail at miserably) against application of math to answer specific questions such as "why are 7-note scales more prevalent than others?", "putting the cart before the horse" is one that descartes is guilty of in nearly every aspect of his philosophy.

The mind body problem does not exist unless you start out with the assumption that "mind" exists. There is no definition for "mind" without religion. It is entirely invented. Regardless of whether you're rationalist or empiricist (I consider this to be an invented distinction as well...) there have never been any experiments proposed to test whether a "mind" exists further than just going with the usual axiom "I think therefore I am."

That is one "problem" descartes was surely aware of as he makes it quite clear himself over and over again while resisting the obvious answer due to his religious beliefs.

Why do you show such fear?

12TET and 7-tone scales do exist. Look out a window.

Idiot. Descartes has nothing to do with the historicism Jancivil, I and others are proponents for. And there are lots of defintion of mind without religion. Religion was left out of psychology in the nineteenth century. if i was to tear down your other misunderstandings, this discussion would never end. AD, we are actually people who are educated in these things and at best you reveal yourself as a high school dropout who hasn't got a clue. At worst as a complete moron. And that is what you have been doing in a lot of areas outside your little coding domain for decades now. You are a clown, good for entertanment only.

[aciddose]

So what are you arguing, exactly?

You've never made a single valid point in any of these threads.

You must be arguing:

• The axiom of working within western music is not "valid"
• 7-tone scales are not more prevalent within western 12TET music
• 7-tone scales are not more prevalent within music

Are there any valid options I've missed here? No, it isn't valid for you to assert that asking the question "why" isn't valid because that's none of your business. If it isn't valid for you, that's fine, go stand in a corner please and stop bothering those of us who actually care about this question rather than outright rejecting it and burying our heads in the sand.

The same applies if you feel that it isn't "valid" to limit discussion to a specific region, time period or culture. Once again go stand in a corner in some other region, time period and culture where you won't bother us.

Now if you are actually arguing that the axiom "7-tone scales more prevalent than others in western 12TET" is invalid that is something. Please do continue if that is the case, but I have yet to even see a single mention of any argument like this from you or others.

[Gamma-UT]

On a point of interest, does anyone have knowledge of the overtone series of the typical gamelan instruments and how that may tie into the particular interval relationships in gamelan music?

The gamelan situation is complicated as the tunings vary and metallophones have complex overtone series. Bill Sethares, who I think I mentioned way back in this thread, did a chapter on it in his book Tuning, Timbre, Spectrum, Scale. It's not a slam dunk matchup but I think it's fairly clear that the harmonics of the metallophone instruments drive the scale. Page 216 or so if you look on Google Books is where he does a matchup between slendro and the overtone series of one gamelan instrument.

The relationship between overtones and tuning is easier to see with the Thai renat ek (and the info is easier to find online) - look at the slides at the end of this preso: http://www.lifesci.sussex.ac.uk/home/Ch ... onance.pdf

[IncarnateX]

So what are you arguing, exactly?.

That you are a fool who is full of yourself but fools no one at the end of the day. And dude, I am a professional, so your attempts to baffle me with skizotypical ramblings will be in vain. But it will have nice empirical value for further studies, so you are very welcome.

[aciddose]

So basically you have no valid argument at all and would rather just fling mud at your "opponents" for fun? Does that sound accurate?

I'm willing to listen to your arguments if you have them, you just haven't been making them up to this point.

Instead it seems all you do is attempt to divert attention away from the topic of the thread. Why is that? It honestly appears as if you find the topic absolutely terrifying.

[jancivil]

a very interesting thread that would be better without the petty undertones.

Ya know, you came along after pages and pages of arguing about ideas; and one guy in particular being very bellicose back in THREAD NUMBER ONE pushing some ludicrous, ad hoc and ad culum 'theories' (silly little games with set theory, and as though he's besting us all intellectually with that grade school shit) which can't be more than a bizarre kind of ego trip - here he is ready to answer the question in the original post, 'why do our scales have seven notes' For The World - and then someone comes in like there is nothing before it with a silly remark... and you take THIS opportunity to chime in with THAT? Oh. Thank YOU for your considered and thoughtful contribution!

Some people are raised to shy away from speaking frankly such as 'that is ignorant'. I was entrained to avoid confrontation, but at a certain point I found it made me sick psychologically and decided I could recover from that.

[IncarnateX]

So basically you have no valid argument at all and would rather just fling mud at your "opponents" for fun? Does that sound accurate?

I'm willing to listen to your arguments if you have them, you just haven't been making them up to this point.

Instead it seems all you do is attempt to divert attention away from the topic of the thread. Why is that? It honestly appears as if you find the topic absolutely terrifying.

Aaah projections!

So deep down inside you do actually know. Then there is hope.

[aciddose]

So obviously if anyone wants to have an interesting, productive discussion about these things in the future it's required to mute both incarnatex and jancivil.

[jancivil]

I posted this back in the original thread [an apt example of a culture that came up with something different and where the outcomes of this pseudo-scientific approach (reverse-engineered out of special observations of particular and limited phenomena out of western practice, exposing a bizarre type of hegemony) apply not at all]: http://sumarsam.web.wesleyan.edu/Intro.gamelan.pdf

[jancivil]

just make another [bullshit claim] and keep it going until people give up right

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Gish_Gallop

[aciddose]

tl;dr, but maybe tallkites post is about "why we *still have 7 notes".. i mean, from a mathmatic or todays perspective one could ask why it's still a convenient system. then you can write about it and if you convince people that it's a good system to learn, why not.

related thought: sometimes when playing keyboard, i think how would it be if there were no black keys, just 12 white keys for each octave. it would have helped me maybe, though you might lose the right key for not knowing where the c is. (if anyone happens to know a software that maps midi keys like this, i'd be curious to test such a thingy.)

I've done it. I found it to be a huge pain as you run out of keys quickly. On an 80-note controller for example you're already limited to only 6+ octaves. On a 60 note controller you're already down to 5!

If you remove five keys from each octave you end up with only 50, 35 notes in total. So that's only 4 and 3 octaves which feels a lot more like a 32 or 40 note keyboard on a mini organ manual or mono synthesizer.

Then you also have the issue that they're so painfully spread out and it turns out it is a great deal of trouble to play the same sort of chords you'd normally be able to.

You should be able to find a plugin that can map notes to do this although it might be a bit of a pain to set up. Still not as painful as actually trying to play it

[dalor]

Humans. Thinking your brains are so sophisticated. Mathematics is seen as the universal language. You make shit up for years, creating and thinking about perfect solutions, just to discover later on everything you created falls apart, it was just man-made shit that lasted for a second and has no long term meaning. The universe laughs at you, foolish mortals
<runs away>

[IncarnateX]

just make another [bullshit claim] and keep it going until people give up right

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Gish_Gallop

Even worse I am afraid.

Narcissistic personality disorder:

Symptoms from DSM-IV-TR include:
- Expects to be recognized as superior and special, without superior accomplishments
- Expects constant attention, admiration and positive reinforcement from others
- Envies others and believes others envy him/her
- Is preoccupied with thoughts and fantasies of great success, enormous attractiveness, power, intelligence
- Lacks the ability to empathize with the feelings or desires of others
- Is arrogant in attitudes and behavior
- Has expectations of special treatment that are unrealistic

Bingo!

Guess we should be sorry for him and not let him get to us but that is the traditional challenge in cases like this.

Cheers mate. And keep up your exciting studies.

[macmurphy]

a very interesting thread that would be better without the petty undertones.

and you take THIS opportunity to chime in with THAT? Oh. Thank YOU for your considered and thoughtful contribution!

i know next to nothing about music theory and was hoping to learn something.
YOU need to check your attitude as you come across as aggressive and patronising.

there is no need for all the aggro.

[jancivil]

Do you typically find it appropriate to jump in the middle of a conversation you weren't in to referee people's behavior? If you find that somehow more apt socially than someone being frank in a somewhat heated argument, I think you might want to reevaluate you vis a vis society a bit. Or would you do this in a cafe or bar? You ask me, you're quite impertinent here.