Delay / reverb developers - Add separate dry/wet knobs to your plugin!

[mystran]

Both of my algorithmic reverbs provide just a simple binary switch for dry-level control: in "insert" mode you get unity pass-thru and in "send" mode the dry signal is muted. You can control the wet-level though. This design was a result of work-flow optimization with actual users and while it doesn't make everyone happy (it can be inconvenient if you're using a reverb as a sound-design tool instead of traditional mixing use), it seems that a fairly decent number of people find this rather controversial design quite usable in practice. YMMV.

edit: for what it's worth, I think a reverb that only provide a wet/dry mix-control is only really usable as a send effect (in which case you can turn the wet to 100% and ignore the whole control)

[aciddose]

Well a lot of the reverbs out there are apparently only useful as send effects in that case. Although oddly as you note in such a case the mix control is entirely redundant.

What could the purpose of it be? Why have engineers used such a control in heaps of devices over time? Is there a logical purpose for such a control? Is it potentially better?

I've already described why it is required and I've offered a solution to the rare "reverb as element in chain of sound shaping effects" in a channel's inserts usage.

I do not think this is the most common use of a reverb. This is a rare and rather insane use of a reverb actually. Having several different reverb timbres and non-linear processing between them does not make for a very attractive end result.

Modern genres and styles have diverged radically from those of the past and perhaps it very well may be that reverb now belongs in the same category as a compressor or EQ.

Just because people are most often using it that way in that particular home-brew studio situation doesn't mean the original design and purpose has been rendered irrelevant.

[Lesha]

Both of my algorithmic reverbs provide just a simple binary switch for dry-level control: in "insert" mode you get unity pass-thru and in "send" mode the dry signal is muted. You can control the wet-level though. This design was a result of work-flow optimization with actual users and while it doesn't make everyone happy (it can be inconvenient if you're using a reverb as a sound-design tool instead of traditional mixing use), it seems that a fairly decent number of people find this rather controversial design quite usable in practice. YMMV.

edit: for what it's worth, I think a reverb that only provide a wet/dry mix-control is only really usable as a send effect (in which case you can turn the wet to 100% and ignore the whole control)

Thanks Mystran, love using Tila and Abstract Chamber, your implementation makes perfect sense to me.

[mutantdog]

I just gave you guys a solution to the problem that would work in all possible cases, not a work-around, not a trade-off.

You need a button by the mix knob that turns it into a "wet level" knob by adjusting the gain automatically to fix the dry at unity.

Okay, to be fair that's a good suggestion. But it's not an option that's available on any plugins that i know of.

You aren't looking at this as a designer of these things, you need to actually sit down and work with this stuff and you might find out wet/dry controls suck hard when you have nothing else. There are many valid reasons for a mix control and replacing it with wet/dry does not make sense for the vast majority of cases.

And there are valid reasons for the other. Thankfully there are plenty of options to choose from in both camps. Still, its perfectly acceptable for people to have a preference other than yours.

Why would anyone need to manually control both wet and dry level though? The fact is they wouldn't.

Just because you cannot envisage a need for something does not make it a fact that no-one would need it.

so why should maintaining unity be so important in a reverb plugin?

You've got to be kidding.

I think you're missing the point of the context in which i said that. In a real-world situation, reverberations are heard in addition to the source. So if simulating a room one would expect the same principle to occur.

Fader = -10db, I want -10db.

If something in the signal chain has added -4db, that means I'm getting -14db instead of -10db. I want my meters and my faders to agree.

If you want to be all over the place you might as well just use unlabeled knobs and forget about faders or labels or meters.

As it stands i pay little attention to the actual numbers on my channel faders. As soon as you put an eq or compressor in there the dB can change significantly, the source may well be less than unity anyway. As we've already established i often like to throw some distortion on at the end aswell. So long as there's no unwanted reds i'm happy.

[Dean Aka Nekro]

Heck if I want anal amounts of control over a specific time based effect as an insert, I simply make a duplicate of whatever the source track is and have it completely wet and much like a send bus/aux return setup I can easily balance the two relative to one another. Actually I do it on almost every mix with my main snare drum for adding solely the early reflections or ambience of the snare to fit it into its own space which is usually just noticeable when soloed in respect to early reflections I'll be adding to other pieces of a drumkit and whatever else that wasn't tracked in a room good enough to rely upon it's inherant early reflections. It is also one of the best ways I believe to get acoustic drumkit ROMplers and amp + mic'd speaker cabinet sims to sit together.

Never felt the need for seperate wet and dry mix controls, Such a feature wouldn't offer me anything that I can not do already and am pretty happy and comfortable with my workflow. So I wouldn't change it and won't change it.

More controls would simply equal more bloat for me personally and aciddose has pointed out in way more depth and technical detail why it's a redundent feature request, Hell I just turned 32 late last month and have been involved in playing, engineering and mixing for over half of those years. The older I get the more I find changes often to be more a hinderence than an improvement/aid. I fuIly admitt that that could be down to me getting and feeling old mind

[aciddose]

With this description, "unity pass-through" you mean dry = 100% ? Or do you mean equal power such that the total output level is unity?

With that method only one or the other is possible, not both.

MutantDog: I'll add it to my reverb (the "fix" switch) as soon as I can. I started to modify the low/high cut and tone controls and haven't finished with those though yet.

I also like the idea, but we'd need to see how it functions in practice. I don't much like the idea of having "wet boost" past 50% very much, but maybe it is actually a really useful way to do things.

The thing is though it only took me a few brain-cells to think of the idea (combined with you torturing them a few times with electric shocks) so I'm really wondering why I haven't seen such a feature in other reverbs in the past.

I know in hardware this would be difficult because it requires a division to be computed.

[Lesha]

There is also a workaround in Ableton Live, you can watch it here:
but instead of fading the Dry control as in this video, you keep it at full gain if you want to keep the dry level at 0 dB.

But the workflow is ruined, and whether I have saved it as an Effect Rack in Live or not, it's all unnecessary if the plugin has separate dry/wet controls to begin with.

[aciddose]

Yes fading between the gain/mix would be intolerable.

This is a unique situation for a lot of reasons. In the past we couldn't "automate" such a control, so obviously this would never have made sense on a rack-mount or module.

This is why the mix + fix idea seems like a good solution. Covers all bases, except if someone can think of some other case wet/dry knobs are needed.

[mutantdog]

That Ableton way is a reasonable workaround. I've used it a few times for plugins that have no wet/dry control at all, Kombinat mainly.

[Table Syrup Records]

I understand the argument of not using too many unique reverbs in a session. It does get messy.

However... I often use reverbs in place of delays when needed for my desired result.

As an example:

Say I want a bit more ghostly delay on something... a little more ambient than a delay on it's own... something that feels a bit softer and less like the source.
For this, I am using Waves RVerb or TrueVerb. Slap it on the source track in question, and I can set the reverb to be delayed, and also dial in the reverb that I want, and because Waves lets you control the Wet/Dry on these, I can dial it in exactly where I need it.

Right on the source track, no routing needed, quick, easy. Bam.

[foosnark]

Personally, I hate trying to simultaneously automate a wet knob and a dry knob by complimentary amounts. I've never had serious issues with unwanted level differences when automating a single mix knob. And I *do* use reverb in some weird ways at times.

Worst I've had to do is use two sends. Channel 1 is sent to ch 2 and ch 3. Ch 2 has the reverb at 100% wet, and then sends to ch 3, which has other effects and goes on to the master. I can separately automate send levels from ch1 -> 3 ("dry") and ch2 -> 3 ("wet"). This is typically what I do when running a soft synth through an external guitar pedal anyway.

[valhallasound]

http://twitter.com/tobi/status/536530195365519360

If you want the dry signal to stay at the same volume while you add reverb, use a send.

I'll be posting a video tutorial by Don Gunn in the next week or so, that illustrates how sends are useful in reducing CPU consumption, while creating a more cohesive mix (as multiple sound sources can be placed in the same virtual space).

Sean Costello

[mutantdog]

MutantDog: I'll add it to my reverb (the "fix" switch) as soon as I can. I started to modify the low/high cut and tone controls and haven't finished with those though yet.

I also like the idea, but we'd need to see how it functions in practice. I don't much like the idea of having "wet boost" past 50% very much, but maybe it is actually a really useful way to do things.

The thing is though it only took me a few brain-cells to think of the idea (combined with you torturing them a few times with electric shocks) so I'm really wondering why I haven't seen such a feature in other reverbs in the past.

You know the more i think about it, this mix-n-fix idea seems to be the best solution that would keep everyone happy, i'm pretty certain it would fit my workflow (I'm sure i could think of a situation where i would want separate controls for both but it would be rather pedantic, unlikely and could be achieved with DAW routing ).

Restricting the wet boost to 50% is probably a good idea since the point of this is about maintaining the dry level as the dominant sound. Anything more than this and almost certainly mix levels need to be reconsidered, thus negating the need for this system in the first place. IIRC, GlaceVerb's wet level is difficult to manage as an insert simply because it only ever needs to be quite low.

If you want the dry signal to stay at the same volume while you add reverb, use a send.

In many cases you are right but there can be times when a reverb in the middle of an effect chain is desired, i used a snare with reverb and distortion as an example but could just as easily imagined a hi-hat loop with some delay followed by a flanger.

Either way, its no deal-breaker and i'm happy to accept that i'm in a minority and work around these things (VVV is high up on my shopping list irrespective of how it handles the wet levels).

[Lesha]

http://twitter.com/tobi/status/536530195365519360

If you want the dry signal to stay at the same volume while you add reverb, use a send.

I'll be posting a video tutorial by Don Gunn in the next week or so, that illustrates how sends are useful in reducing CPU consumption, while creating a more cohesive mix (as multiple sound sources can be placed in the same virtual space).

Sean Costello

Thanks Sean, I already know about that and it makes more sense for a reverb than for a delay. But, there are some situations which require inserts, such as when I need reverb automation. In that case I want that automation to affect only one channel, not all.

[Lesha]

I can't express my gratitude enough for a proper dry/wet implementation in NI Replika, this is how it should be done with a single dry/wet knob!

Mix at 0% = 100% Dry gain, 0% Wet gain
Mix at 50% = 100% Dry gain, 100% Wet gain
Mix at 100% = 0% Dry gain, 100% Wet gain

Beautiful, thank you NI!