2015 EU VAT rules ("MOSS")

[PALU]

But maybe they will force you like this when you try to access the EU

so youre suggesting that european police are going to tackle me and bring me down in the streets of new york?

Since when New York is in the EU?

[Wildfunk]

Since when New York is in the EU?

What about reading carefully? "But maybe they will force you like this when you try to access the EU"

[PALU]

Since when New York is in the EU?

What about reading carefully? "But maybe they will force you like this when you try to access the EU"

My English is not native and not THE best, but I understood "accessing the EU" as "traveling to EU"?

[chaosWyrM]

chaosWyrM; Setting the server or domain in another country won't make any difference on the business end of things. Either you need to act as an individual, or you need to register a corporation to act on your behalf (more like wearing a mask, really) and that needs to be located to allow avoidance of this tax.

Where the server is located influences whether laws regarding transmission of data, storage of records and so on apply.

Where the domain name is registered affects only the domain name registration and information associated with it (the person who registered the domain and their information) and sometimes as in the case of .ca domains some requirements for the content displayed by the server, but nothing else.

ah ok aciddose...now were getting somewhere. your previous posts are making this a little clearer. it still seems the way you proposed earlier could have some legs, you wrote:

"I would imagine it may be possible to do the same with a holding company and charge a license fee to yourself, meaning that you add zero value when making your sale and therefore collect zero value-added tax."

of course we both think that too easy...but as of yet...no explanations to why that wouldnt work.

[chaosWyrM]

Since when New York is in the EU?

What about reading carefully? "But maybe they will force you like this when you try to access the EU"

My English is not native and not THE best, but I understood "accessing the EU" as "traveling to EU"?

lol...ok let me get this straight...so now your suggesting that because i dont/wont collect vat here in the us, that if i were to travel to europe...there will be police waiting for me to tackle me in the streets and arrest me???

how on earth would they even know who i am to do that?

are you suggesting that everyone in the world who sells something in the eu and doesnt collect vat is to be put on some kind of international black list and brought down as soon as they cross a european border???

not only is that logistically impossible, its laughably paranoid and insane.

[PALU]

lol...ok let me get this straight...so now your suggesting that because i dont/wont collect vat here in the us, that if i were to travel to europe...there will be police waiting for me to tackle me in the streets and arrest me???

Nope - I'm suggesting nothing like that. It was Wildfunk's joke. I'm just asking about language nuances that I did not apparently understood.

I agree with you - that happening for real would be "laughably paranoid and insane."

[chaosWyrM]

lol...ok let me get this straight...so now your suggesting that because i dont/wont collect vat here in the us, that if i were to travel to europe...there will be police waiting for me to tackle me in the streets and arrest me???

Nope - I'm suggesting nothing like that. It was Wildfunk's joke. I'm just asking about language nuances that I did not apparently understood.

I agree with you - that happening for real would be "laughably paranoid and insane."

ah yes...my apologies. nested quotes got out of hand.

[Wildfunk]

lol...ok let me get this straight...so now your suggesting that because i dont/wont collect vat here in the us, that if i were to travel to europe...there will be police waiting for me to tackle me in the streets and arrest me???

This will not happen "in the streets" but directly at the airport

are you suggesting that everyone in the world who sells something in the eu and doesnt collect vat is to be put on some kind of international black list and brought down as soon as they cross a european border???

Sure, why not? Depends on the amounts of course

Do you really think you are invisible? You deal with buyers from the EU so your details (email/name/address) will arrive here. Also Paypal saves everything.

not only is that logistically impossible, its laughably paranoid and insane.

Your country does every day "laughably paranoid and insane" things that are "logistically impossible"

[chaosWyrM]

lol...ok let me get this straight...so now your suggesting that because i dont/wont collect vat here in the us, that if i were to travel to europe...there will be police waiting for me to tackle me in the streets and arrest me???

This will not happen "in the streets" but directly at the airport

are you suggesting that everyone in the world who sells something in the eu and doesnt collect vat is to be put on some kind of international black list and brought down as soon as they cross a european border???

Sure, why not? Depends on the amounts of course

Do you really think you are invisible? You deal with buyers from the EU so your details (email/name/address) will arrive here. Also Paypal saves everything.

not only is that logistically impossible, its laughably paranoid and insane.

Your country does every day "laughably paranoid and insane" things that are "logistically impossible"

ok the airport then.

why not? uh-uh...youre proposing something...you need to explain why (and more so how).

i have dealt with buyers in the eu, and i can guarantee you...they do not have any of that information. and while paypal saves everything...you are assuming that paypal KNOWS everything...which they certainly do not. its a few steps from the point of sale to my paypal account.

is it impossible to connect the dots? surely not...do i believe that european authorities are going to ever connect them...lol..no, i dont. and do i believe they would both connect them and wait for me at the airport...hardly.

and no one does things that are logistically impossible...since they are impossible.

[Wildfunk]

i have dealt with buyers in the eu, and i can guarantee you...they do not have any of that information.

Who cares about your 2 sales on Bandcamp?!?

Do you have a company? No. So just stop telling the people here they don't have to pay taxes to the EU. We don't need such "smart" suggestions from wannabe-criminals.

[aciddose]

Either you need to act as an individual, or you need to register a corporation to act on your behalf (more like wearing a mask, really) and that needs to be located to allow avoidance of this tax.

Does it really matter? 90% of all those small samples/presets sellers pay no taxes at all, they don't even run a company. Just look at all those Whoisguard-protected websites with no company/location info etc.

Well that depends upon your definition of "really matter". All you need to do is piss off the wrong person and they'll have heaps of stuff to hit you with.

One thing about the .com nonsense, sure, it doesn't "really matter". Unless you want to travel to the United States in the future, where you'll either be kicked out or not allowed to cross the border, or you'll be thrown in prison after you arrive.

This could apply to any vacations you want to take to some country in the EU.

Also, various extradition treaties.

Again yes, you could be "hidden", ultimately however you'll need to give up account information and other details to make a sale to a customer. If that customer is located in the EU, it is likely that via paypal or other services your information is now also available to jurisdictions in the EU.

Doesn't matter one bit if you run a corporation or not. These situations are almost identical, even liabilities are the same unless you obey the law.

For example say you own one of these shell/holding corporations and move all your income out of the reach of your country of residence to avoid taxation. Now if you buy a yacht or an island or similar it is entirely possible that you will forfeit these possessions to the country where you have broken laws or where your corporation has done so. If your corporation has made the purchase, the item does not actually belong to you! If you have made any mistakes in the way the accounting was handled, you could be personally liable and the protections normally offered by a corporation could be lost.

[aciddose]

of course we both think that too easy...but as of yet...no explanations to why that wouldnt work.

I suspect that it does work. Such a company is referred to as a "reseller". The problem is going to be exactly how the EU law works with regard to license agreements, royalties, shares and dividends and likewise.

Most resellers operate via royalty payments, so you'd need a license agreement specifying a specific royalty and for that agreement to be valid it would require valid consideration. So in other words, $1 may not cover it.

If you were to launch the corporation yourself rather than hire an existing reseller you would likely be liable for any illegal actions taken by that corporation as in my previous post. So, you could hide exactly what is going on financially for the corporation and offer your license for $1. Then though of course if the corporation's purpose was to disobey EU law by refusing to properly handle VAT, you could be charged with a crime just as if you had lived in a EU country and committed this crime yourself without any corporation ever being involved.

As for my original description, the reverse seems possible but relies upon the idea that VAT would only be charged on profit and profit can be moved to another country to avoid the VAT. This may not be the case.

[chaosWyrM]

i have dealt with buyers in the eu, and i can guarantee you...they do not have any of that information.

Who cares about your 2 sales on Bandcamp?!?

Do you have a company? No. So just stop telling the people here they don't have to pay taxes to the EU. We don't need such "smart" suggestions from wannabe-criminals.

well since i asked the question...small digital only sales (such as 2 sales on bandcamp) are specifically the kinds of things im asking about...or did you somehow miss that point the other 6 times i said it?

again...try to keep up, ive already said i dont claim to have "a company".

i have told no one that they dont have to pay taxes, and i havent suggested anything. i have in fact mentioned that i dont think my scenario would even work...multiple times.

i dont see where the "wannabe-criminal" idea comes from...were talking about tax avoidance not tax evasion (as aciddose already made the distinction). this line of discussion is about legal options, not criminal activity...but i guess you missed that too.

you are 0-5 on basic reading comprehension. i would chalk it up to a language barrier, but i think youre just being an ornery malcontent.

[Wildfunk]

were talking about tax avoidance

Only you are talkling about this here.

There are only 5 solutions:

1. Deal with it (collect and pay the taxes)
2. Use a reseller which handles the stuff for you
3. Open an overseas branch
4. Stop selling to people inside the EU
5. Shut down your "business"

Your "idea" is not even an option for serious businessmen.

And btw this "new" rule is valid for US people since 2003...

[chaosWyrM]

were talking about tax avoidance

Only you are talkling about this here.

There are only 5 solutions:

1. Deal with it (collect and pay the taxes)
2. Use a reseller which handles the stuff for you
3. Open an overseas branch
4. Stop selling to people inside the EU
5. Shut down your "business"

Your "idea" is not even an option for serious businessmen.

And btw this "new" rule is valid for US people since 2003...

and once again you fail to understand the very basic concept that we are not talking about "serious businessmen".

lol...exactly how many times do i need to type it out for you that my question was specifically about small time online only shops that deal in very low volumes of sales?

by definition...not serious businessmen.

thats like the 7th or 8th time ive told you that.

im done with you too now...have a nice day.