reFX Vanguard 2?

[hivkorn]

i use Vanguard 1 with JbridgeM , it work correctly under S1v3...But i 'm really curious to see when Vanguard will be released...and they said in the mail (we received a long time ago) it will be free for V1 user.

[aciddose]

Could it be a lot of work to recompile for 64 bit? No new features, just a recompilation to 64bit vst2.4

No, it isn't really. The problem is the old style C code that doesn't take 64-bit compatibility into account.

Vanguard and Mike (correction: were) both old-style C code.

For example back around 2009 - 2010 when I wrote this plugin I mentioned, I was using "long" types because on Windows under Visual Studio (c++) they decided to make "long" always a 32 bits integer.

On other compilers however such as, well, every other compiler ever... when you use the "long" type you get the biggest native integer type available. As 64 bit, this becomes a 64 bit integer.

This was dealt with in the later part of 2010 after I no longer worked at refx. At that point I started to use the new types: cstdint and manual typedefs.

So now my code uses "i32" when I want a 32 bit integer. I use "i16" for 16 bit, "i08" for 8 bit and so on. This means there is no chance for a mistake to be made.

So a consequence of this is that part of making your code 64 bit (or 128 bit, or 9000 bit) compatible is to eliminate absolutely any use of these "loosely defined" types like "long, short, char, int" unless you use "int", which is specifically intended to be used when you just want to store a "reasonable" sized integer without really caring if it's fast or how big it can be.

This takes a bit of effort, maybe a few days or a week. I've seen most of the code for the original Vanguard and it is horrible is this respect (correction: in my opinion, I might have trouble making it x64) so to be honest I can't tell you how difficult it might be.

As for 64-bit compiles that work on Windows however, I already did this if I remember correctly. This was reasonably easy because due to "long" being 32 bit even on x64, it means you don't actually need to change the code to let it compile.

I'm sorry though, to be honest I can't fully remember whether I compiled the original Vanguard in 64-bit or not. I feel like I did, but it was so long ago I'm not 100% certain.

I was always insistent on running in 64-bit debugging mode, while Mike liked to code in 32-bit release mode. Debugging mode is important for me because I add lots of checks to ensure I haven't made a mistake. They call these "sanity checks". For example if you expect to only pass a certain range of input parameters to a function, check that inside the function.

Running in 64-bit mode was important for me because I wanted to ensure all future code I wrote would be fully compatible.

http://www.cplusplus.com/doc/tutorial/variables/

Anyway that integer type sizing issue is one of many issues that would need to be fixed.

Essentially, making code 64-bit compatible requires fixing any bug related to the platform (32-bit, 64-bit) so it reveals all the mistakes you made in your older code.

[Teksonik]

Perhaps you could answer a question for me if you would be so kind and don't mind this drifting off topic for a moment. I've been going through the list of Active Connections on this computer.....software that has asked to connect to the Internet through the WebRoot Secure Anywhere Security Suite and noticed a lot of plugins are listed. Now I understand some may call home and check for updates or it may be related to copy protection but why would a simple freeware plugin like Charlatan need a connection ? Is there a simple logical explanation for that ? Am I just being paranoid or ?

[aciddose]

Well, for example I know that (correction: I remember Mike explaining that, if I recall correctly) in Nexus Mike uses a network connection to download the bitmaps and other information about expansions. This is to allow that information to be updated over time. Essentially it enables new updates to be advertised. If you block the plugin from network access you'll lose those bitmaps (they'll show up as defaults or blanks) and the information if not cached (for ads, etc) will not appear. (correction: To the best of my memory from back in 2009, which may be incorrect.)

I don't know anything about Charlatan but it seems possible it may do something similar.

They may also collect statistics such as how often they're used, where, how long and by whom via this method. In the least any connection at least acts as a "ping", it doesn't tell much about the plugin but it does tell it was used and the ping came from a specific IP address.

I've considered adding such a feature to Xhip such as an update notification. Checking for updates acts as this sort of "ping" functionality but most users will leave it enabled unlike if you labelled the function as what it really is.

I'd love to know exactly how often and where my plugin is being used as well as to keep users up to date, but I decided I can't really justify this. If people want to check for an update they can check the website themselves. My curiosity is not a justification to spy on users

(correction: note that my comment "justification to spy on users" is completely separate from any other statement in this post. It applies only to the paragraph in which it occurs. All of the comments about "ping" functionality are entirely speculation. In order for such communication to be recorded it would need to be designed as such, which may not be the case for every implementation.)

[Teksonik]

Thanks for the explanation. Yes I wondered if data mining was a possible motive. Charlatan doesn't need any bitmaps or anything nor does it do an update check. It's about as simple a synth you can have (I'm not picking on the developer of Charlatan it's a great sounding synth and he's very generous for setting it free) I just happened to notice it on the list. There's a ton of Imageline plugins on the list even Fruity Bass Boost which is about the simplest plugin you can have and to be honest I'm not trusting their software much anymore. I've got it all blocked at the firewall so I guess it's nothing to worry about. I suppose it would be possible to slip some malware in a .dll that might transmit more sensitive data but the Security Suite should catch it.....Webroot is not the best but is pretty good and I get it free with one of my bank accounts.

Thank you for not spying on users.......

Anyway back on topic....Vanguard 2...vaporware or coming soon ?

[aciddose]

I suspect Mike had it figured that Markus and anyone else involved was happy and "good to go" on the release back when he announced it and soon after it became clear that wasn't actually the case.

Vaporware? Possibly. More likely "actually, no you can't"-ware.

When Mike hired me, initially he wanted "an assistant in coding" so he could focus on certain jobs (maintaining the server and website) while I could maintain Nexus and other products. (correction: this is how it actually worked out, although when we first met for what might be considered a "job interview" he explained that I could act as a sort of assistant or apprentice assigned to small-scale jobs, and once skilled enough and having proven my skill might be assigned to my own projects.)

His initiative was later revealed to be that he wanted to "get rid of Vanguard because I'm forced to deal with Markus every time I need to do anything with it and this is nothing but a pain." (Not really a correction but more a note: "a pain" simply due to having to deal with others as opposed to making decisions on his own without outside influence or discussion.)

[basslinemaster]

aciddose, could you comment on the reason given by IK Multimedia for not converting Sampletank 2.5 to 64 bit, when they said that it would be too difficult and would lead to bugs? As I'm not a programmer, I would love to hear what you think about whether that is true or not, and what it says about their code.

[aciddose]

I have no idea.

The code might not belong to them. Same problem as quadraSID. (correction: to the best of my memory I recall Mike having explained that there were significant difficulties in maintaining or upgrading certain projects. We discussed upgrading the existing products as potential projects that might be assigned to myself. If I recall correctly Mike's preference seemed to be to replace the existing software and again, if I recall correctly he described quadraSID as being particularly problematic due to including emulator software [CPU? SID? I don't recall] that was "cryptic" in his words if I recall correctly.)

Completely speculative though since I have never seen anything related to the plugin you mention.

What it says about the code is exactly what they said.

"Too difficult" means it is a lot of work, which might mean either they didn't write good code to start with, or that they don't understand the code and would need to learn.

"Could lead to bugs" means exactly the same thing.

Both point at the same:
Either or both:

• They don't know what they're doing or getting into (= risk)
• They did a really, really bad job (= seppuku)

And both:

• They don't want to or are unable to invest the effort (no rights, no motivation, etc)
• They don't feel it would be of any benefit (plugin wouldn't sell, etc)

That is only part of it though. It could be a licensing issue. A lot of software is actually built from many components that are recycled and reused with very little understanding.

To upgrade a project built from old components that are no longer maintained, the author of the project would need to take ownership of those components and upgrade those themselves.

The rights to include a new version might be very expensive or entirely unavailable.

[aciddose]

Isn't that what Vengeance sound named their drum/synth sampler?
Did Mike have anything to do with that one? It was advertised under refx before launch, then no more.

http://vengeance-sound.de/plugins.php?s ... %20Phalanx
rsp

I have no idea to be honest, I really haven't paid any attention since mid 2010.

I remember Mike using the name and I've heard it mentioned since then so I assumed that might have come from him (the name, not the plugin) but I have no idea really.

If this plugin came out or was advertised pre-2010, I only overheard Mike use the name I suppose referring to "names like".

If it is, I had no idea this is a drum plugin.

[aciddose]

BTW, just something for people to think about.

Has anyone considered that discontinuing old products can sometimes occur before release of new products?

(If it can't be maintained into the future, since Mike is quite a good guy I don't think he'd want people to continue to buy the plugin expecting that. The best way is in my opinion to simply discontinue these products completely.)

I don't have any first-hand info here, but this is certainly possible.

[KingTuck]

There's a ton of Imageline plugins on the list even Fruity Bass Boost which is about the simplest plugin you can have and to be honest I'm not trusting their software much anymore.

Gah man this is so dumb. IL already responded to you on this but now, for no reason, you're kinda just not been trusting their software so much these days y'know? There's just no reason at all to hold that belief, unreasonable or no. It's difficult and patchy to try and discern a specific dll using the internet in separation from its host executable. I can promise you that those net checks you're seeing are much more mundane than you think, and almost certainly not tied to the individual plugins, their functions, or data collection.

Please man, you got an official response about this. People put on their Sherlock Holmes costumes and worked this info out when it was brought up earlier. Nobody came out finding anything patchy. For your own benefit, don't hold beliefs that don't hold themselves together!

[KingTuck]

His initiative was later revealed to be that he wanted to "get rid of Vanguard because I'm forced to deal with Markus every time I need to do anything with it and this is nothing but a pain."

Not super surprising. Markus and Mike had different ideas. Markus wasn't happy being a hired gun and wanted to develop his HCM synthesis in a new product but Mike had no interest in taking up one of Markus' synth ideas. Hence Tone2 started and Markus left reFX.

[basslinemaster]

Thanks very much for your detailed reply, aciddose, very interesting to read.

[Teksonik]

There's a ton of Imageline plugins on the list even Fruity Bass Boost which is about the simplest plugin you can have and to be honest I'm not trusting their software much anymore.

Please man, you got an official response about this. People put on their Sherlock Holmes costumes and worked this info out when it was brought up earlier. Nobody came out finding anything patchy. For your own benefit, don't hold beliefs that don't hold themselves together!

Oh and by default FL sends out your user name and account number every time you render to audio unless you opt out:



You can thrust them if you want......I no longer do. Deal with it..........

[Crackbaby]

Thanks for the insight aciddose!

It would be fun with some sort of family tree where you could see the people behind the plugins, not the companies. I didn't know someone from Tone2 did work for Refx for instance.