KVR Audio

LawrenceF · Post by **LawrenceF** » Wed Dec 16, 2015 6:39 pm

No idea about the other stuff but the main point of the .Net framework is that it's already in the OS, there's nothing to distribute really, which is why some .Net apps with no other real dependencies just run, without installing or anything else.

Obviously, nobody writes the core of a pro daw in .Net.

But you can certainly use the framework for other stuff in the Windows daw, like Vegas does, since all of the parts are already in the OS, on the system.

AegisPrime · Post by **AegisPrime** » Wed Dec 16, 2015 6:45 pm

LawrenceF wrote:No idea about the other stuff but the main point of the .Net framework is that it's already in the OS, there's nothing to distribute really, which is why some .Net apps with no other real dependencies just run, without installing or anything else.

Which would be great but .NET isn't really backwardly compatible so (particularly if you're using older applications) you end up having to install multiple versions on your PC *sigh*

LawrenceF wrote:Obviously, nobody writes the core of a pro daw in .Net.

You sure about that?

I'm pretty sure Sonar uses .NET in some capacity (at least, .NET 3.5 has caused issues with Sonar on Windows 10).

SJ_Digriz · Post by **SJ_Digriz** » Wed Dec 16, 2015 6:50 pm

EvilDragon wrote:It can and it does. Well, numbers in CPU reduction vary from plugin to plugin, but anticipative processing REALLY helps a lot to spread out the load over time, and add efficient and very well done multicore processing... that's how things are supposed to be

ED, the point is that lots of DAWs deal with this differently. Logic has a method, Cubase has a method etc ... By the time the audio is processing the net usage is the same. Most people don't GROK that the numbers they are comparing are not apples to apples. Just like people think that ASIO Guard in Cubase allows them to run more plugins. Instead of understanding that it just runs the project at a much higher than configured buffer size automatically, then bringing monitored channels back to the base latency. Then they try to compare plugin count on their system set at 4ms and someone else's set at 4ms that uses say Logics method. You end up at the same spot in general when the final tally comes in post processing.

It wasn't a dig at Reaper which is a very efficient DAW.

LawrenceF · Post by **LawrenceF** » Wed Dec 16, 2015 6:53 pm

AegisPrime wrote:You sure about that? I'm pretty sure Sonar uses .NET in some capacity (at least, .NET 3.5 has caused issues with Sonar on Windows 10).

Not the core of it.

The cores, roots, of daws are all probably written in C++ or C or similar, not a higher level managed language like .NET or C#.

But sure, a Windows only daw like Sonar or Vegas would be dumb not to use it for some other stuff in the daw. The framework is nice, and dead easy to use.

AegisPrime · Post by **AegisPrime** » Wed Dec 16, 2015 6:53 pm

@ SJ_Digriz: Always nice to meet a Harry Harrison fan

LawrenceF wrote:Not the core of it. The cores, roots, of daws are all probably written in C++ or C or similar, not a higher level managed language like .NET or C#.

But sure, a Windows only daw like Sonar or Vegas would be dumb not to use it for some other stuff in the daw. The framework is nice, and dead easy to use.

Makes sense to leverage it where it makes sense

LawrenceF · Post by **LawrenceF** » Wed Dec 16, 2015 6:56 pm

AegisPrime wrote:Which would be great but .NET isn't really backwardly compatible so (particularly if you're using older applications) you end up having to install multiple versions on your PC *sigh*

Well, it kinda depends on what version the developer targeted. You don't have to target the latest version when compiling an app, you can target an earlier version to be more compatible with older OS'es, 3.5 or something.

But sure, if you compile for the latest version and use features that are not in an older version of it, yeah, that won't be compatible obviously.

And I obviously mis-spoke above since .Net is not a language, it's a framework.

Managed languages like C# make it easier to use but you can use the framework from any Windows language.

SJ_Digriz · Post by **SJ_Digriz** » Wed Dec 16, 2015 7:04 pm

AegisPrime wrote:@ SJ_Digriz: Always nice to meet a Harry Harrison fan

It's funny, but this is one of the last sites that I still use a silly nickname instead of my real name.

But, I got out of so much trouble in high school that a couple friends started calling me slippery jim as we were all reading that stuff at the time. I loved that series when i was in teens a weee few years back.

AegisPrime · Post by **AegisPrime** » Wed Dec 16, 2015 7:18 pm

My first introduction was in the pages of 2000AD

http://www.2000adonline.com/books/stain ... el-rat.php

(I've since read the books though - why haven't they made a movie??)

kelldammit · Post by **kelldammit** » Fri Dec 18, 2015 7:39 pm

Maybe the filesize is proportional to the price?

The thing i miss most from reaper is plugin sandboxing. I can't for the life of me figure out why this is not a universal feature. Assuming hardware is cool, virtually all daw instability traces back to 3rd party plugs.

Anyhoo...Enjoy!

zappsunzorn · Post by **zappsunzorn** » Fri Dec 18, 2015 9:35 pm

kelldammit wrote:Maybe the filesize is proportional to the price?
The thing i miss most from reaper is plugin sandboxing. I can't for the life of me figure out why this is not a universal feature. Assuming hardware is cool, virtually all daw instability traces back to 3rd party plugs.

Anyhoo...Enjoy!

Um unless I did not understand the statement Reaper does this and was one of the first If I recall, right click on an effect in the effect browser and select "run as" for the options.

Reaper gives you this as an option thankfully, if you mean that Reaper does not do this for every plugin I am happy I have the option, because as far as I know that is unnecessary for the plugins I use.

ccDuckett · Post by **ccDuckett** » Fri Dec 18, 2015 10:53 pm

What I particularly appreciate about REAPER, after coming from ACID Pro and SONAR:

Plugin management x1000!
Being one of those strange creatures that enjoys old, arcane freeware just as much as the latest shiny x64 payware, I know full well that some ancient thing dredged up from the depths might decide to crash and try to take my DAW with it;
REAPER allows me to have a least-painful setup that means my project isn't doomed even if the plugin is. I can ditch the offender and get on with life.

-I need not ever concern myself with jBridge- everything. just. works.

-Scanning- again, even if a complete rescan of my plugin folders is needed, the process does not fill me with dread, as it would with ACID.. it's very speedy. There have been plugins that will crash a DAW during the scanning process, but that's rare and thankfully it doesn't require starting completely over after tracking down the offender. The only thing I would wish for is an "ignore pop-ups" feature which would remove the need for me to babysit the complete rescan process.

-All plugins have a wet/dry knob.

-Parameter automation (especially the ability to use incoming audio for FX) is easy to set up.

I'm not a total drooling fanboy- there have been times when REAPER's crashed and the .exe refuses to be force-killed, and random times when REAPER decides it can't find certain plugins used in a project that loaded fine 2 hours ago.. 'twould also be nice if the routing window would not vanish if you click anywhere else.

Yep- stable, speedy, no tiered version or subscription nonsense, doesn't cost much, has a great community around it- Me like plenty.

koolkeys · Post by **koolkeys** » Fri Dec 18, 2015 11:12 pm

AegisPrime wrote:Well, there's also the issue of cross-platform code - some applications seem to do it very elegantly (Tracktion uses JACE) and some don't. Also, I guess some operating systems (looking at you, Windows) need more support in terms of dlls, .net support and Visual C redistributions.

Yet, despite all the Windows dependencies, Mac installers are generally larger than their Windows counterparts. Why? Because Mac has dependencies also if the devs decide to use certain native libraries. Every program is different, of course.

Undoubtedly there's a whole bunch of stuff that I'm completely ill-equipped to comment on that goes into making a robust and fully-featured application but it really seems to me that many of the incumbents (and I mean generally, think Photoshop, MS Office, 3D Studio Max) are far more bloated than they have any need to be.

But who decides that? For every person who complains that Photoshop is a full 3D modeler and render engine, there are people who use the Photoshop 3D workflow to keep everything in one app(and it does it well). For every person who doesn't need Photoshop to generate CSS, there are as many web designers who are glad they continue to improve that aspect of the program. One man's bloat is another man's convenience. So how bloated to do they need to be to satisfy all their users?

Not arguing, just giving perspective really.

Brent

xNiMiNx · Post by **xNiMiNx** » Fri Dec 18, 2015 11:16 pm

LawrenceF wrote:
AegisPrime wrote:Which would be great but .NET isn't really backwardly compatible so (particularly if you're using older applications) you end up having to install multiple versions on your PC *sigh*
Well, it kinda depends on what version the developer targeted.

Needing multiple versions (like amd catalyst needed 2.0 for a long time), the size of these packs, and the fact that the dev decides which version to target, makes me one of the people you find online that 'avoid it like the plague'.

Its not true for all software, but in my circle, needing to use this framework is a crutch. Its never as streamlined of code as it could be. Usually the answer to why it was used is because 'it was easier', rarely because it will add some functionality that could not be achieved by not using it.

But hardware keeps getting better, so lets throw bloat to the wind!

Anyways, i love the features reaper packs into such a small package. The ability to shape the DAW into most anything is a huge plus, and their demo / pricing needs not be mentioned.

If thats not enough, it sounds better than other daws! Just kidding, happy holidays everyone.

zappsunzorn · Post by **zappsunzorn** » Sat Dec 19, 2015 12:12 am

One other thing about Reaper that I think is still unique with DAWs is that you can open up the project file in notepad, or other such program and it is surprisingly easy to edit and see how things are setup.

One time years ago I found a long fixed bug that corrupted the project file. I was able to reproduce that corruption in an otherwise new empty project, compare project files and fix the original problem. I do not think I would have been able to do that with many other DAWs in the market.

braj · Post by **braj** » Sat Dec 19, 2015 12:13 am

I wish there were some sort of Reaper mod to set it up as closely to Studio One as possible, then I could move between the two with ease. As it is I use Reaper infrequently and the program is a little too complex for me in that sense, I just don't get my eyes on it often enough to know it deeply. I end up struggling with things I had done a bunch before but get lost in the menus. My brain just isn't terribly efficient, can I get a hardware upgrade?

REAPER is amazing.