Next U-HE Plugin...

[pdxindy]

I have different templates in Novation Automap for different OSC modes. Basically first page is different and the rest of the pages are very similar: filters have very little variation and envs/lfos are always the same. So it's very easy to remember and use quickly.

There are like 170 parameters in Diva... there is the modifications page, the trimmers page, a single LFO has 11 parameters.

The Digital Osc alone has 23 controls.

Sorry, but Novation is a nightmare of pages and switching with that number... I would not possibly remember which parameters were on which page, or what parameters were in the add modulator, or which filter model I had selected, or what button did what.

It is nowhere near the experience of a simple knob per parameter hardware synth.

[david.beholder]

There are like 170 parameters in Diva... there is the modifications page, the trimmers page, a single LFO has 11 parameters.

The Digital Osc alone has 23 controls.

Sorry, but Novation is a nightmare of pages and switching with that number... I would not possibly remember which parameters were on which page, or what parameters were in the add modulator, or which filter model I had selected, or what button did what.

It is nowhere near the experience of a simple knob per parameter hardware synth.

Well I don't see necessity to map all 170. Aux/trimmers/voicemaps/effects - are easily configurable with mouse. That remove around half of params.
Then Automap remember which instance of plugin is using which template.
Then Novation Automap is configured: 1st page oscs, 2nd page filter, 3rd page lfo/misc; envs are sliders on all pages. Also simialr osc params are sharing the same knob on all presets. So it's damn simple and automap/lcd gives you visual confirmation on which page you are and what are params.

[pdxindy]

There are like 170 parameters in Diva... there is the modifications page, the trimmers page, a single LFO has 11 parameters.

The Digital Osc alone has 23 controls.

Sorry, but Novation is a nightmare of pages and switching with that number... I would not possibly remember which parameters were on which page, or what parameters were in the add modulator, or which filter model I had selected, or what button did what.

It is nowhere near the experience of a simple knob per parameter hardware synth.

Well I don't see necessity to map all 170. Aux/trimmers/voicemaps/effects - are easily configurable with mouse. That remove around half of params.
Then Automap remember which instance of plugin is using which template.
Then Novation Automap is configured: 1st page oscs, 2nd page filter, 3rd page lfo/misc; envs are sliders on all pages. Also simialr osc params are sharing the same knob on all presets. So it's damn simple and automap/lcd gives you visual confirmation on which page you are and what are params.

Hey, if you are happy with that, fine... but you being happy with that is not indicative of how useful it is for others. For Diva I would much rather use the mouse than a novation controller. Faster and way better visual feedback.

A dedicated controller for Re-Pro would be sweet (and far easier than for Diva)

[david.beholder]

Hey, if you are happy with that, fine... but you being happy with that is not indicative of how useful it is for others. For Diva I would much rather use the mouse than a novation controller. Faster and way better visual feedback.

A dedicated controller for Re-Pro would be sweet (and far easier than for Diva)

As well it's showing that may be you haven't tried all available ways like Automap or say building DIY controllers that is actually very easy nowdays.

[Funkybot's Evil Twin]

...or say building DIY controllers that is actually very easy nowdays.

Is there a good resource to this that's idiot proof? What's the skill level required to build a controller? I've thought about it more than once recently, but have no idea where to start. Where can I buy the keybed and wheels? How do I connect them to a controller? How do I add knobs/faders and connect them? Then even once you get them wired up, how do you actually program the controls so they're transmitting CC or note on/off messages, etc? Where does one even get this stuff? I keep hearing "just build a controller"' but I suspect it's a lot harder than building an electric guitar, and it took me 3 years to get that thing finished...

[david.beholder]

...or say building DIY controllers that is actually very easy nowdays.

Is there a good resource to this that's idiot proof? What's the skill level required to build a controller? I've thought about it more than once recently, but have no idea where to start.

Well there are things starting from pre-cooked like http://lividinstruments.com/products/builder/
thru old and famous http://www.ucapps.de/ to completely diy.

But basically you need scanmatrix/mux/bus where you could connect your pots and knobs.
Keys on keybed are also done with scanmatrix or mux and it should be documented well.
It worked for me this way: for a month or so I were purely digging internet, next month I bought arduino and began experiments: I've started with simple button->proc->midi-out->pc-midi chain and then increased complexity to knob->dac, matrix of buttons, matrix of knobs, i2c displays, scanmatrices etc

Control logic is way easier than say audio because it's all happening at really low voltages, with very simple patterns and with idiot-proofed ics.

Well I haven't burned anything yet altho i expected few times that I did.

Where can I buy the keybed and wheels? How do I connect them to a controller? How do I add knobs/faders and connect them? Then even once you get them wired up, how do you actually program the controls so they're transmitting CC or note on/off messages, etc? Where does one even get this stuff? I keep hearing "just build a controller"' but I suspect it's a lot harder than building an electric guitar, and it took me 3 years to get that thing finished...

1. Keybed and wheels are available from different sources including old synths.
2. You're adding pots and buttons via s&h mux or scanmatrix ending with DAC; encoders and buttons via digital buses as i2c or SPI
3. That's easy you have timer based program that stores position of cotrollers when one of them is changes it sends midi message thru midi out
4. Ebay, Mouser, Octaparts
5. Well that's really person-dependable;

[pdxindy]

As well it's showing that may be you haven't tried all available ways like Automap or say building DIY controllers that is actually very easy nowdays.

Oh I've tried Automap... It basically sucks except for stuff like a valhalla reverb or other simple plugins.

Screen and mouse is 10 times easier for any complex UI's like Diva, Bazille, etc.

To effectively control Diva, this works... 116 controls (90 knobs and 26 switches)



and no, that is not easy or inexpensive to make...

[Urs]

I recall that we put months into building our own Diva controller - which still had a touch screen to reach for auxiliary parameters. Never worked properly, so we buried "making hardware controllers" as a project.

[sascha]

At least it would require a more thought-through hardware design, and less cablework. Cables and connectors are the plague for a device that's supposed to go on stage or something. The less connections, the better. I can imagine something like a rPI or Banana PI for the SW, an SPI-based Touch LCD, a USB sound device or a HIFIBerry board, and an Atmel-based µC like an Arduino for the hardware-interaction part. My personal experience with buttons, switches and encoders using a non-RT OS were disappointing, a dedicated µC is mandatory for tight and reliable operation. The two parts could greatly interact using I²C or the SPI interface, which has been done a thousand times in other fields, and it works.

But someone has to do it, invest time and other resources.
And still, such a design is *nothing* to go into production. rPI & Arduinos are prototyping devices. Once this 'proof-of-concept' is fine, someone has to do it 'the right way'. There's more to hardware market than trying to sell an experimental test unit. And that is where I'd see this more as something for the specialists, with proper resources, logistics, long-term experience, industrial contact, time and backbone.

[Funkybot's Evil Twin]

And that is where I'd see this more as something for the specialists, with proper resources, logistics, long-term experience, industrial contact, time and backbone.

Based on the commercially available MIDI controllers being mass-manufactured and sold today, I'd think this is an impossible ask.

I don't know who is going to do it, but someone's going to eventually put out a great MIDI controller for large VST synths that will have tons of knobs, faders, and buttons (I'm talking 40+ realtime controls - I'd kill for 70+) and maybe even a tablet-like touch screen for non-standard parameter mapping (or hell, build a location to mount an iPad or Android tablet and just build apps). I'd be in for $1,000-1,500 USD for 49 keys. It's such a bummer that everything out there right now is based on the usual 8 knobs, 8 faders, 8 pads configuration, which is awful for realtime control/programming of VA's or other large synths.

[sascha]

You can make a guess how many companies have enough venture capital to survive a period once such a niche endeavour turns out to be a fiasco. Even digital hardware stage synthesizers are 'niche' these days.

[AnX]

I'd like to see Urs and Co continue with stuff like RePro. Dont really have much interest in their other stuff.

[Funkybot's Evil Twin]

You can make a guess how many companies have enough venture capital to survive a period once such a niche endeavour turns out to be a fiasco. Even digital hardware stage synthesizers are 'niche' these days.

Let's forgoe the build a touch screen element to it, and look at it another way: a part of what made analog synths and VA's popular was the realtime control compared to the digital synths of the early 2000's and 90's. It makes sense that musicians would want as many realtime performance controls as possible, and everyone agrees that menu diving sucks.

Now let's apply that logic to today's MIDI controllers. You get the 8/8/8 knobs/faders/pads configuration, which is minimal, but many offer you the ability to bank those parameters. The flip side is, you might not be able to tweak your oscs and filters at the exact same time, but maybe you could group those controls in a same bank. We're clearly in a better place today, but I personally would still like to see a device that exposes more parameters at once. I think most musicians would. And how much would adding 24 extra knobs and some buttons to these existing controllers really add to development and manufacturing costs in relation to how much more you could charge? In my head that's a safer bet for NI, Novation, or Akai than releasing another crappy 8/8/8 controller that looks just like everything else currently on the market.

The solution I've come up with is to buy a VA and just be done with it. I'm looking at the Studio Logic Sledge. It's the closest thing to my ideal controller on the market at the moment (Prophet 08 is also under consideration but I have a feeling as a synth it's great but as a controller probably less so). Anyway, we've way digressed.

Let's talk about Pro-One some more...any chance of a public beta soon? I really want to buy this ASAP. I also want to see what other mono synths you guys tackle after it (Prodigy). There's something about doing true 1:1 emulations of the classics that I've always found appealing. Monark, and TAL's Juno and SH-101 are among my favorite VSTi's. There's something very utilitarian about the concept as a whole, and the layout of these workhorses in particular, that appeals to me.

[Urs]

Let's talk about Pro-One some more...any chance of a public beta soon? I really want to buy this ASAP. I also want to see what other mono synths you guys tackle after it (Prodigy). There's something about doing true 1:1 emulations of the classics that I've always found appealing. Monark, and TAL's Juno and SH-101 are among my favorite VSTi's. There's something very utilitarian about the concept as a whole, and the layout of these workhorses in particular, that appeals to me.

There won't be a release shortly, not even a beta...

Building this thing is a major challenge. And example: Try any current modular synth that allows you to set an oscillator to PWM itself with an inverted signal. It sounds horrible in ACE and it sounds dreadful in, well, the other modular that just came out (first thing I tried...). It's a very special case in these systems, one which most people might never stumble upon. In the Pro-One however it's almost inevitable that this gets patched up. OSC B modulating its own pulsewidth. In the Pro-One, just like in any analogue synth I could try this with, inverting self-PWM sounds absolutely smooth. It will sound absolutely smooth in Repro-1 as well. But it took one developer four months to tackle the issue.

It'll take some time, hence the rough estimate of what can be expected in the near future (read: maybe this year).

- Urs

[Funkybot's Evil Twin]

It will sound absolutely smooth in Repro-1 as well. But it took one developer four months to tackle the issue.

It'll take some time, hence the rough estimate of what can be expected in the near future (read: maybe this year).

I love how dedicated you guys are to nailing every aspect of this thing. I'd have never of guessed something as seemingly simple as that could take four months to get right, but I'm glad you're that committed to it. Take your time...