FR: Metering value options (not only max value)

[Tagirijus]

There is no need to be sassy.

It was late and your reply read sassy as well. Sorry for that.

But what if they can't, because they just don't know how to work with these tools, or metering tools for that matter, to begin with? Ever thought about that?

I am talking about people who'd also like to have more options for the number below the meter - not newcomers, who are new to meldaplugins at all or similar.

Why introduce more features and readouts that most Joe Normalguy's won't even understand?

Because Meldaproduction plugins are professional ones. If Joe cannot handle it, he can stick to way simpler other tools he does understand. Moreover I doubt that giving the user an optional number readout under the meter would make a plugin too diffcult to understand. You do not really think that maybe a second meter readout option would cause it, right?

Edit: By the way: did you ever right click on a LU meter? There you can change what exactly of the EBU R128 term you want to read out. I meant such a thing. NOT an additional number. Just right click and select a different thing ... or maybe in the settings.

This is why there are still so many messed up ideas on metering, mixing and mastering. This is why we still have followers and firm believers of the Loudness War, even though it's long over.

I'm not saying that "change" and "innovation" is bad in this case - it's how it's advertised and "abused".

I think you overestimate things here ... and at this point I do not even know why. Is this feature idea that offensive to you in some way? Then I'd to apologize to you.

But there is no correct threshold to set according to an average read out of the GR.

"Correct" meaning the personal taste of the one who uses the tool here.

Using compressors is a subjective thing, so it's basically art, it's a "gut feeling". There is no one-fits-all setting.

And since there are always no-one-fits-all settings, I think personal workflow options would be good - just in general.

Do you really think an GR AVG value will improve that?!

Yes, since in some cases dynamic compression can be hard to differentiate.

But personally, as Audio Engineer with a huge interest in Metering Tools, I don't see a need for this.

Would have been enough when you just have wrote this in the first place though.

[Tagirijus]

Edit: deleted double post, sorry.

[MeldaProduction]

I think the whole debate is about the use of the actual number. For my perspective the meters themselves show some activity, one can visually judge how much "something is happening" , and that's useful. But then there's the accurate number, like gain reduction of -4.32dB. My question is simple - what does it tell you? How does it matter if it's the global minimum, or minimum from last 3 seconds?

My point is, that it doesn't really matter if it is -4.32dB or -4dB (which you can see from the meter itself, no need for a number). I think the people's need for -4.32dB is to confirm their visual senses from the meter itself. If the meter shows around -2, yet the number below is -10, then the brain says "oh! something is not right!" .

But at the end, what are you going to do with -4.32dB? You are not going to enter it anywhere, you are following any tables of required / maximum values etc. The number itself is pointless. It's there because at some point people started adding them to the meters . Well, it's not always true, it's useful for LU meters and peak meters (maximum), and that's already how the meters work.

Anyways, working on it, I hope I'll manage to make a switch between global max and temporary max that would follow the top line, that should do the trick for everyone I hope .

That are very good questions. I think most people just want the number of follow whatever they are looking at, which changes by the situation and person , so it's quite impossible to make everyone happy. But the reality is, that the accurate number is nearly always completely useless...yet people are just trying to hold onto it, like it possesses some kind of magical power saying that "something is good" . But it usually doesn't

After reading this, I fell like and think your actual meters are unnecessary and could be totaly removed! Maybe that´s the answer?!

Do I smell classic Svama "if it's not going to be by me, then it should be removed entirely" attitude? Btw. you should read carefully, because we are talking about the small number in the bottom, not the meter! It's like you'd be buying a car and said that if the numbers on the thermometer wouldn't be digital, then the whole car is useless .

[Svama]

I like to polarize. Revolution!!!!! Sorry for that.

But the meter and the number at the bottom should correspond to each other or not?
For myself I'm usually have a gain reduction between 3 and 6 decibels on vocals in my workflow for example and it feels and mostly it listens good to me. Maybe a little bit old school workflow?

[Tagirijus]

My point is, that it doesn't really matter if it is -4.32dB or -4dB (which you can see from the meter itself, no need for a number). I think the people's need for -4.32dB is to confirm their visual senses from the meter itself. If the meter shows around -2, yet the number below is -10, then the brain says "oh! something is not right!" .

Well I am not talking about .XX values. Of course there wouldn't be an audible difference between -4.00 and -4.32 probably. If you have a beat in loop for example and MTurboCompressor is set up wrong accidentially or something like this ... maybe the GR is -20 all of a sudden. So now you have to turn down the compression or maybe the in level as well AND click on the number below the gr meter to reset the readout. Then you can adjust the value again (asuming that it's not really audible) by the meter. Suddenly it's too much maybe? You go down again and the values stays, since the gr already was to heavy. Now see what "problem" I see here?

Maybe it's not even that important regarding the amount of work you'd put into it to give the user an additional option. Of course it's okay to just say "no" then! Maybe it is indeed just me who can neither work only by ear regarding compression nor the graphical meter alone ... who knows? ... or maybe some people here understand the problem I have, feel the same and come up with a different idea.

[Svama]

I also don´t use the Set AGC. I prefer to set the Output gain manually, there also helps a good gain reduction meter with the "right" value of gain reduction under it. The values beside the meter don´t help that much in that manner. There is 0 on top, next value is -10 and no value in between. I´d like to see a scalable meter like I already said. So everyone can decide if he wanna see a gr meter between 0 and infinity or a realistic one between 0 and 20 for example! My thoughts.

[Tagirijus]

I also don´t use the Set AGC. I prefer to set the Output gain manually

Same here.

There is 0 on top, next value is -10 and no value in between. I´d like to see a scalable meter like I already said. So everyone can decide if he wanna see a gr meter between 0 and infinity or a realistic one between 0 and 20 for example! My thoughts.

I also thought about that. I am not sure though if this would be way more complicate to implement.

[Svama]

Complex plugins need complex implemantation;-)

[Tagirijus]

Complex plugins need complex implemantation;-)

Lifetime free updates need considerate customers.

[MeldaProduction]

Hehe scalable meters are a "no", sorry.

[Compyfox]

Edit: By the way: did you ever right click on a LU meter? There you can change what exactly of the EBU R128 term you want to read out. I meant such a thing. NOT an additional number. Just right click and select a different thing ... or maybe in the settings.

Which metering tool are we talking about here? Melda Production ones? If so, I did not.

Most tools I use have no extra feature on the right mouse button, and I'm not going by the "EBU R-128 meter scale" these days anymore either.

Is this feature idea that offensive to you in some way?

It's not offensive, it's nonsensical IMO.

We AE's have to fight enough already regarding meters and wild "concepts" that are out there. Adding another one, only adds more to already existing confusion.

But there is no correct threshold to set according to an average read out of the GR.

"Correct" meaning the personal taste of the one who uses the tool here.

You said "correct setup" - there is nothing of those sorts.

But personally, as Audio Engineer with a huge interest in Metering Tools, I don't see a need for this.

Would have been enough when you just have wrote this in the first place though.

I did not? Oh... okay then...

[Tagirijus]

Which metering tool are we talking about here? Melda Production ones? If so, I did not.

Since I posted it in the Meldaproduction forum: yes, metering tools of some melda plugins (e.g. MTurboCompressor, in which you have a LU meter as well).

We AE's have to fight enough already regarding meters and wild "concepts" that are out there. Adding another one, only adds more to already existing confusion.

Well it's nothing you had to use after all. If Vojtech would implement an option (this implies that you CAN use it) for my requested idea regarding the GR number below the meter, you could ignore it and use the defualt value, which would probably be like before - or change it back and save it as the default preset or something like this.

And interesting that you speak of all AE's. Technically I am also kind of such a guy, since I mixed some films ans music as well already (professional, since I am doing a living with this). I do not feel like your statement applies on me though.

You said "correct setup" - there is nothing of those sorts.

Misunderstanding here? I am speaking of the personal taste of maybe the compression level - not "correct setup".


Again: I think you might still misunderstand things here. I am not talking about a revolutionary new measurment algorithm or special readout system, which would try to be something big and new. I am just talking about "giving the user the option to not ONLY have max value for the gr number, but also a more realtime value as well". I do not see what could be wrong with this essentially, since it should only be an individual option the user could make.

[Compyfox]

And interesting that you speak of all AE's. Technically I am also kind of such a guy, since I mixed some films ans music as well already (professional, since I am doing a living with this). I do not feel like your statement applies on me though.

I said "we" not "all"...

There are AE's specialized in this field, there are AE's that use/understand metering tools yet don't care otherwise, there are AE's that just "truck along" and make their own thing but are not as skilled in certain fields, and there are so called "AE's" (especially those fresh from the academy) that say the most craziest stuff, but don't understand what's "behind the technology" they're using.

Which one you are, I can't tell.

Again: I think you might still misunderstand things here. I am not talking about a revolutionary new measurment algorithm or special readout system, which would try to be something big and new. I am just talking about "giving the user the option to not ONLY have max value for the gr number, but also a more realtime value as well". I do not see what could be wrong with this essentially, since it should only be an individual option the user could make.

Then I ask again:
- why is a histogram feature not good enough for that?
- why doesn't a simple GR meter suffice?
- why an "average" of the GR readout taken so far?

All that is already built into the plugins


Is this really only down to convenience for manual Output Gain setup?

[Svama]

I think we need a virtually ring card girl? Vojtech, can you implement something like this?

Round 6: Professional AE vs Mr. GR Metering

It´s really funny!

[steve2KVR]

...ya, this is THE most polite flame war I've ever watched...funny thing is I've lost track of what the original issue was...had to go off and mix something... .../s~