Bitwig

antic604 · Post by **antic604** » Wed May 31, 2017 7:22 am

I suspect the GUI issues might be related to Bitwig being over ambitious. One of the first things I noticed when trying the demo and demo songs was how fluid everything was: scrolling, update of graphs on devices, etc. I think they target screen refresh at 60fps, whereas Ableton I'm sure is 30fps or even less. This surely has to have a hit on CPU and I'd imagine Java isn't the best optimised for fast responsive graphics like this... Wish there was some option in there to limit the refresh to 30fps (or is there?).

pdxindy · Post by **pdxindy** » Wed May 31, 2017 8:27 am

antic604 wrote:I suspect the GUI issues might be related to Bitwig being over ambitious. One of the first things I noticed when trying the demo and demo songs was how fluid everything was: scrolling, update of graphs on devices, etc. I think they target screen refresh at 60fps, whereas Ableton I'm sure is 30fps or even less. This surely has to have a hit on CPU and I'd imagine Java isn't the best optimised for fast responsive graphics like this... Wish there was some option in there to limit the refresh to 30fps (or is there?).

The GUI issues are not consistent. Some people have them, others do not. And it is not just a matter of how capable someones CPU or GFX are. I'm not aware of a clear and repeatable pattern having been found.

askewd · Post by **askewd** » Wed May 31, 2017 9:35 am

After 8 years with Cubase followed by 5 with logic , i was longing for something refreshing and different. Something more streamlined, but less linea, and with more charm and creativity inspiring.

I thought LIVE was it, gave it a real solid go... absolutely loved a lot of it's features and as far as creativity goes it blew logic out of the water... but man, that GUI, that arrangement page... just wasn't for me. Messy. I needed something with much cleaner minimal & better thought out. I remember actually apologizing to live - speaking to the screen as I closed Live down for the last time: "so close my friend, so close... " i said. The search continued.

Tried Studio one ... hmm, i thought logic was dull - but man studio ones interface was just even more dull, grey, lightblue and grey. only lasted 2 days with that demo. uninspiring.

THEN IT HAPPENENED... i searched for "DAW" in google image search, and started scrolling through pages of screenshots... and suddently i saw it - it was beautiful! it was called Bitwig and was in development by a bunch of crazy maverick programmers from Germany. Instantly, i just knew - it was THE ONE. The more i read about it and the more screen shots that emerged the more excited i got.

The wait for it to be developed was long and hard - but well worth it. Here we are a few years later and i've never looked back. My initial gut feeling was correct, this is my DREAM DAW. I never intended to be a fan-boy but simply can not help it. As a professional mixing engineer, masterer and producer (actually just found out a few hours ago we're number 1 in Japan!) with a history of using other daws , i feel confident and knowledgeable enough to state that Bitwig is bloody amazing!

Not perfect yet, but still young with plenty of room to grow & refine. Currently a powerful, exciting & inspiring DAW.

Cheers

DALE

mgw38 · Post by **mgw38** » Wed May 31, 2017 11:27 am

pdxindy wrote:
antic604 wrote:I suspect the GUI issues might be related to Bitwig being over ambitious. One of the first things I noticed when trying the demo and demo songs was how fluid everything was: scrolling, update of graphs on devices, etc. I think they target screen refresh at 60fps, whereas Ableton I'm sure is 30fps or even less. This surely has to have a hit on CPU and I'd imagine Java isn't the best optimised for fast responsive graphics like this... Wish there was some option in there to limit the refresh to 30fps (or is there?).
The GUI issues are not consistent. Some people have them, others do not. And it is not just a matter of how capable someones CPU or GFX are. I'm not aware of a clear and repeatable pattern having been found.

Java performance depends on how well the JVM implementation is tied into the system architecture and can differ enormously across seemingly similar systems. It does not necessarily have anything to do with the capabilities of CPU and/or GFX.

mclstr · Post by **mclstr** » Wed May 31, 2017 1:18 pm

Re: "Java performance depends on how well the JVM implementation...",

I agree, Java has the potential to be as efficient with resources as long as everything is done right.
There were many cases of bad coding and one major software company who felt threatened by Java who did their part to intentionally make Java look bad a few years back.

P.S. I am not a developer and personally have no involvement with anything Java related other than running code. I did at one time work with developers who wrote in many languages and swore that Java didn't have to be a resource hog as long as you used the right tools.

sisarii · Post by **sisarii** » Thu Jun 01, 2017 2:42 pm

The Bitwig GUI issues are VERY real for everyone I know that demod Bitwig. I have abstained from upgrading to 2.0 because this was an issue present in Bws 1.0 too and from what it seems the devs don't care or its too much work to fix such glaring performance issues so they prefer to ignore it.

Its not a mac issue as a work on both mac and windows and really powerful machines at that and the GUI craps out the same.

Even on really light projects its just slightly not as responsive as any other daw I ve worked on which ends up being irritating..

If only more people contacted the bws support about this..

antic604 · Post by **antic604** » Thu Jun 01, 2017 2:50 pm

sisarii wrote:If only more people contacted the bws support about this..

Why won't you do it? I don't own it so I can't back it up with examples or specifics...

machinesworking · Post by **machinesworking** » Thu Jun 01, 2017 4:03 pm

Ableton Live and Bitwig Studio are the two most resource hungry DAWs out there, it's not any wonder that GUI issues might be popping up, Java code or not. Not saying this to dog on these programs, I use Live, and if Bitwig gets the web collaboration features together I'll probably switch. It's just that they take more CPU to do the same tasks than other DAWs. Live traditionally is 60-70% on my setup before crapping out CPU wise of what Logic and Digital Performer can do. The traditional DAWs, Cubase, DP, Logic, Sonar, etc. get anywhere from 25-40% more plug ins running before audio gets affected than Live, and Bitwig is even more resource hungry than Live. You pay for all the glitch free adding and tweaking things while the sequencer is running features of these DAWs compared to the others.

Erkenfresh · Post by **Erkenfresh** » Fri Jun 02, 2017 2:59 am

I used Live for about six years and recently switched to Bitwig. Some of the strengths of Bitwig:
1. The built-in modulation is excellent, no need for Max4Live, you can have modulators modulate other modulators and create some interesting patterns in no time
2. Hybrid tracks, though I haven't used them yet let you mix audio clips with midi clips. Midi notes play the instrument(s) while audio goes through the same effects you put after the instrument. So you can bounce in place one clip at a time instead of freezing entire tracks.
3. Surface support. The videos for this looked incredible and I wanted to try it out myself. I haven't done much with it yet, but I plan on making a template specifically for the Surface to use low CPU VSTs or built in instruments. The idea of taking my Surface to the park and building a track out under the sun, or while travelling is very appealing.
4. Multi-layered editing. OMG this makes it so much easier to build a melody when you can see the underlying chord progression at the same time.
5. More modular displays, better multi-monitor support. It's easier to see what I want to see and expand it to fill entire windows at any given moment.
6. Better looking GUI, I can't explain why, but it just looks better than Live.
7. Plugin sandboxing, apparently CamelAudio's Alchemy will crash if Fabfilter Pro-C2 is already loaded... Sandboxing helped me figure this out a lot faster. (Also happens in Live but it brings the whole DAW down)

What do I miss?
1. Beat repeat, that was a nifty little Ableton effect. I miss that guy. There are probably some good alternatives out there (any suggestions?)
2. Clicking on a volume fader and pressing up and down arrows to change volume by 1 dB (I did that ALL the time in Live and I can't find a way to do this in Bitwig)

I am still getting used to some of its quirks, but I am pretty happy with the switch.

blubberbert · Post by **blubberbert** » Fri Jun 02, 2017 8:07 am

Hey,

also a psyproducer over here. I´ve been using ableton for several years, atm using bitwig more. Here are my very personal pros and cons for BWS 2 so far.

CONS

GUI laggy compared to Live
Creating automationtracks not as intuitive (I might be missing something here)
No min/sec timesignature in the actual arrangementwindow (minor problem)
Kick 2 vst sometimes creates offset (I think I never experienced that in Live)
More fellow artists at least know their way around Live (everybody uses it for their sets)
Sometimes messes up tempo when browsing (restarting audioengine solves that for me)

PROS

Overall stability no crashes - also better for playing livesets
32bit compatible (I got some goto 32bit plugins which wont run smooth in Live+jbridge)
Bouncing feature is way way better (kick&bass/ creative lead and fx - desing much faster)
Clips contain events (same use as the above)
Groups in groups
Clips on Group level
Layered editing helps for your typical crowded psyarrangements
Better browser (besides the point mentioned above)
Modulators way better than M4L devices (also M4L takes long to load)
Hybrid tracks very helpful
Tabbed project browsing and easy file and trackswapping between projects
Solid stability in midi based collab (plugin version compatibility)

Overall I feel that I am making decisions faster, having more fun and liking the the production - "atmosphere" better.
Regarding stockdevices: I rarely use them nowadays. Lately I only used eq8 which I then swapped for fab q2 entirely. I like Poly better than Lives analog. I never liked operator though it is good for basses (like a ton of other synth). Regarding collabs: More often than swapping many versions of the track I either worked together in the studio or swapped audiofiles like two or three times - even though many use Live chances are that your mate uses Cubase/FL/Logic which are also incredibly common amongst psyartists.

Personally I´d also wait for Abletons 10 announcement.

antic604 · Post by **antic604** » Fri Jun 02, 2017 10:54 am

All, thanks for your input and feedback - it's greatly appreciated.

For the time being I'll enjoy my brand new Surface Pro 4 with Ableton Live and impatiently will await what v10 brings to only then decide whether or not branch out to Bitwig.

Thanks again!

lengro · Post by **lengro** » Fri Jun 02, 2017 3:26 pm

I was a Renoise user for years.

Some time ago I got Ableton Lite with a new MIDI controller, and for the first time, I started to enjoy a horizontal DAW.
A few weeks ago I was 100% certain I would upgrade my Ableton - but expecting 10 anytime soon, I would wait for that.
However, I started to evaluate Bitwig, and after some getting used to - I bought the full Studio. What a great experience!

Ableton 10 now has to be very special for me to even consider it. It will must likely still heavily depend on Max, and focus on Push - two technologies I don't care much about.

A happy Bitwig camper here

anoise · Post by **anoise** » Fri Jun 02, 2017 3:49 pm

blubberbert wrote: Kick 2 vst sometimes creates offset (I think I never experienced that in Live)

This! I reported this behavior to Bitwig and Sonic Academy a couple of months ago. Still waiting for a fix...
The only workaround is to sample the kicks from Kick 2 for consistent, on time hits.

Cyoon · Post by **Cyoon** » Fri Jun 02, 2017 3:52 pm

hm, never realized with kick2, will pay attention.

_TLG_ · Post by **_TLG_** » Fri Jun 02, 2017 4:35 pm

yeah, bitwig is great in many aspectst, but there are still many bugs that effectively spoil the fun.

even if you made a great track on bitwig it may happen that you will wake up and the soft will be useless due some update... something like "neverending beta".

Im with Bitwig since 1.0 but It starts to run on my nerves

So far downsides:

- bugs that come with new versions, for me the 2.1 is useless
- huge CPU usage compare to FL or Ableton
- GUI laggs nonstop, I was hoping that it was 1.0 "feature" but we still have it on 2.x

Bitwig

KVR Audio

moving to Bitwig from Ableton Live