Side As Stereo
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- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 2702 posts since 9 Jul, 2015 from UK
I'm pretty sure there is left side and right side. As mid is the content that is the same in both channels, ergo side has to have a left and right counterpart as they are different from each other.
Jason @ Melda Production
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- KVRAF
- 10376 posts since 2 Sep, 2003 from Surrey, UK
First attempt (with liberally scattered MultiAnalyzers):
>>> http://i.imgur.com/dpAYBRC.png
'Select All' won't work, click and drag through it and paste into a spare A...H slot.
(A multi-output MXXX would be handy
)
>>> http://i.imgur.com/dpAYBRC.pngCode: Select all
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- KVRist
- 224 posts since 4 Jun, 2016
Where do you get that from? I haven't come across any article about M/S that defines MID other than L+R.Harry_HH wrote:Mid is rather an intersection of the left+right,
i.e. common to the left and right channels.
Masi
Last edited by masitito on Sat Jul 29, 2017 7:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
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- KVRAF
- 5440 posts since 4 Aug, 2006 from Helsinki
Where do you get that from? I haven't come across any article about M/S that defines MID other than L+R.masitito wrote:Harry_HH wrote:Mid is rather an intersection of the left+right,
i.e. common to the left and right channels.
Masi[/quote]
Where do I get that? Its basic mathematics.
Last edited by Harry_HH on Sat Jul 29, 2017 10:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
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- KVRist
- 148 posts since 8 Aug, 2011
Hi had a go at the side as stereo, not sure if it what you were after but gave it a go
Code: Select all
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- KVRist
- 224 posts since 4 Jun, 2016
"intersection" is different from "sum". And "sum" is is.Harry_HH wrote:Where do I get that? Its basic mathematics.masitito wrote:Where do you get that from? I haven't come across any article about M/S that defines MID other than L+R.Harry_HH wrote:Mid is rather an intersection of the left+right,
i.e. common to the left and right channels.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stereopho ... tereophony
https://www.justmastering.com/article-m ... -part1.php
https://www.izotope.com/en/community/bl ... ssing.html
http://www.uaudio.com/blog/mid-side-mic-recording/
https://theproaudiofiles.com/mid-side-processing/
http://www.soundonsound.com/techniques/ ... processing
Masi
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- KVRAF
- 5440 posts since 4 Aug, 2006 from Helsinki
Indeed its different. I'm familiar.with those articles. I'm talking about mathematical formulas: intersection, sum and difference.masitito wrote:"intersection" is different from "sum". And "sum" is is.Harry_HH wrote:Where do I get that? Its basic mathematics.masitito wrote:Where do you get that from? I haven't come across any article about M/S that defines MID other than L+R.Harry_HH wrote:Mid is rather an intersection of the left+right,
i.e. common to the left and right channels.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stereopho ... tereophony
https://www.justmastering.com/article-m ... -part1.php
https://www.izotope.com/en/community/bl ... ssing.html
http://www.uaudio.com/blog/mid-side-mic-recording/
https://theproaudiofiles.com/mid-side-processing/
http://www.soundonsound.com/techniques/ ... processing
Masi
If the Mid was a mathematical sum Mid=L+R, this meaned that the Mid-component includes the total, all the sound information.
In that case the M/S -processing would not make any sense, affecting to the Mid would change the whole signal.
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- KVRist
- 224 posts since 4 Jun, 2016
Too bad for you: mid IS the mathematical sumHarry_HH wrote: If the Mid was a mathematical sum Mid=L+R, this meaned that the Mid-component includes the total, all the sound information.
In that case the M/S -processing would not make any sense, affecting to the Mid would change the whole signal.
M = L + R
S = L - R
L = M + S
R = M - S
And yes, processing of either M or S will have unexpected results if you don't have that in mind.
Around 25:00 Ian Sheperd goes into explaining M/S and its pitfalls:
https://soundcloud.com/themasteringshow/25-stereo
But the whole episode is worth listening.
Masi
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- KVRian
- 509 posts since 28 Oct, 2012 from Argentina
Creating the Sides Channel
To create the “sides” component of MS processing, the right channel can be subtracted from the left channel (sides = left – right). This is done for convention, using the opposite would produce a similar result (sides = right – left).
Therefore, signals that have identical amplitude in the “left” and “right” channels (i.e. those panned to the center) will be removed. In other words, the combined amplitude of center signals will be reduced to zero in the “sides.”
More completely, the “sides” component is created by also scaling the amplitude by a half: sides = 0.5 * (left – right). This reduction in amplitude will be necessary at the end when the “mid” and “sides” are recombined to recover new “left” and “right” signals.
Creating the Mid Channel
If the “sides” channel is created by taking the difference between “left” and “right,” the “mid” channel is created by taking the sum of “left” and “right,” or mid = 0.5*(left + right).
One thing that can be confusing is that the “mid” signal actually contains signals that are panned completely left or completely right. These components are not ‘canceled out’. Rather, signals panned left or right will be relatively lower in amplitude than signals panned to the center.
This result occurs because panning functions are typically intended to maintain constant power across the stereo field (not constant amplitude).
To accomplish constant power, signals panned to the center have a higher summed amplitude. When a mono signal is panned to center, it is played through both speakers. The amplitude of signal through each individual speaker is scaled to be 0.707*original amplitude, or the square root of 0.5.
When the left and right channels are added together, the amplitude of a center signal is 1.414*original mono amplitude (~3 dB louder).
Therefore, the “mid” channel in MS decomposition can have a higher amplitude for center information than side information.
https://theproaudiofiles.com/mid-side-processing/
To create the “sides” component of MS processing, the right channel can be subtracted from the left channel (sides = left – right). This is done for convention, using the opposite would produce a similar result (sides = right – left).
Therefore, signals that have identical amplitude in the “left” and “right” channels (i.e. those panned to the center) will be removed. In other words, the combined amplitude of center signals will be reduced to zero in the “sides.”
More completely, the “sides” component is created by also scaling the amplitude by a half: sides = 0.5 * (left – right). This reduction in amplitude will be necessary at the end when the “mid” and “sides” are recombined to recover new “left” and “right” signals.
Creating the Mid Channel
If the “sides” channel is created by taking the difference between “left” and “right,” the “mid” channel is created by taking the sum of “left” and “right,” or mid = 0.5*(left + right).
One thing that can be confusing is that the “mid” signal actually contains signals that are panned completely left or completely right. These components are not ‘canceled out’. Rather, signals panned left or right will be relatively lower in amplitude than signals panned to the center.
This result occurs because panning functions are typically intended to maintain constant power across the stereo field (not constant amplitude).
To accomplish constant power, signals panned to the center have a higher summed amplitude. When a mono signal is panned to center, it is played through both speakers. The amplitude of signal through each individual speaker is scaled to be 0.707*original amplitude, or the square root of 0.5.
When the left and right channels are added together, the amplitude of a center signal is 1.414*original mono amplitude (~3 dB louder).
Therefore, the “mid” channel in MS decomposition can have a higher amplitude for center information than side information.
https://theproaudiofiles.com/mid-side-processing/
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- KVRAF
- 5440 posts since 4 Aug, 2006 from Helsinki
Don't take this so personally - I won't.masitito wrote: Too bad for you: mid IS the mathematical sum
M = L + R
....
We are all learning, all the time.
On my behalf, I thank for commenting, although I'm not sure if this is crystal clear, yet.
If Mid = 0.5*(left + right) (by "pumafred")
the above
Mid = L+R can't be correct
Nor is my postulate
Mid = intersection (L+R)
But mine makes more sense to me.
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- KVRist
- 224 posts since 4 Jun, 2016
Me neither. Don't worry.Harry_HH wrote: Don't take this so personally - I won't.
BTW, if you look at MUtility you'll find "coder" at the bottom. One option is to convert L+R to mono+stereo. And this is just another name for mid+side
I guess it's only half of the sum, so the mid isn't louder than the side information.Harry_HH wrote: If Mid = 0.5*(left + right) (by "pumafred")
the above
Mid = L+R can't be correct
Anyway, I understand that you try to keep up the idea of a "better" definition of mid. I myself thought when I heard of mid/side it must be awseome. Yet it isn't - it's only a misleading name for sum/diff (or mono/stereo).
Life's unfair
Masi