What is all that "warm" "Analog" - "cold" "digital" sound thing about?

[chk071]

But OK, lets make it more interesting - which is warmer, a french horn or a trombone? A flute or a recorder?

A bongo is also an acoustic instrument. Yet does it have nothing in common with a piano. Synthesizers to 95% sound the same. And the rest 5% is distinguished and described by, for you, non-telling terms.

Bullshit. Are you saying that a Prophet-5, a Kawai K5000, a Yamaha FS1R and a Synergy sound 95% the same?

If they had the same features, they would. I think you're massively missing the point. Again, read the first post, instead of posting offtopic nonsense. That's much better than doing multiple quotes to allegedly prove someone wrong, and still miss the point. Seriously.

So, if all the synths were the same, they would sound the same

No. You missed the point again. I give up. Seriously, let's talk again when you don't just see black/white. And when you actually understood the OP. His point was that he wondered what the difference between a "warm" or "cold" sounding SYNTHESIZER is. As there is no point in comparing apples to oranges, of course, he was asking about the differences of synthesizers, when they do the same sounds. Diva can't do wavetables, Serum doesn't have different analog modules. At best, you can do same-ish sounding sounds, and compare those. A wavetable e.g. can sound cold or warm by default, depending on the sonic content. So, if you take a cold sounding wavetable, and compare that to Diva, which sound in Diva would you program to compare it to? On the other hand, a wavetable synthesizer can do simple VA too, so you can of course compare that to another VA synth.

[fluffy_little_something]

Does the typical Fairlight voice patch sound warm or cold to people here? I like that sound a lot, but somehow I can't decide whether it sounds warm or cold to me.
Same goes for the DX7 synth basses.

[fmr]

His point was that he wondered what the difference between a "warm" or "cold" sounding SYNTHESIZER is. As there is no point in comparing apples to oranges, of course, he was asking about the differences of synthesizers, when they do the same sounds. Diva can't do wavetables, Serum doesn't have different analog modules. At best, you can do same-ish sounding sounds, and compare those. A wavetable e.g. can sound cold or warm by default, depending on the sonic content. So, if you take a cold sounding wavetable, and compare that to Diva, which sound in Diva would you program to compare it to? On the other hand, a wavetable synthesizer can do simple VA too, so you can of course compare that to another VA synth.

OK, now we are reaching somewhere. But que question the OP asked wasn't simply between what are "warm" and "cold" sounds (which, again is rather subjective, but anyway). What he asked was about the intrinsic qualities "analog" synths have that make people talk about them as "warm" when opposed the "cold digital" synths - and he gave DIVA and Serum as examples of a warm synth as opposed to a cold synth.

Which is a concept that, frankly, I thought was vanished by now (as I thought was the "best sounding DAW" too, but apparently some myths never die).

So, we can talk about "cold" sounds opposed to "warm" sounds (although I doubt we can reach any consensus about that). But not about analog=warm vs digital=cold.

[fmr]

Does the typical Fairlight voice patch sound warm or cold to people here? I like that sound a lot, but somehow I can't decide whether it sounds warm or cold to me.
Same goes for the DX7 synth basses.

You mean the famous ? Sounds pretty warm to me

[chk071]

His point was that he wondered what the difference between a "warm" or "cold" sounding SYNTHESIZER is. As there is no point in comparing apples to oranges, of course, he was asking about the differences of synthesizers, when they do the same sounds. Diva can't do wavetables, Serum doesn't have different analog modules. At best, you can do same-ish sounding sounds, and compare those. A wavetable e.g. can sound cold or warm by default, depending on the sonic content. So, if you take a cold sounding wavetable, and compare that to Diva, which sound in Diva would you program to compare it to? On the other hand, a wavetable synthesizer can do simple VA too, so you can of course compare that to another VA synth.

OK, now we are reaching somewhere. But que question the OP asked wasn't simply between what are "warm" and "cold" sounds (which, again is rather subjective, but anyway). What he asked was about the intrinsic qualities "analog" synths have that make people talk about them as "warm" when opposed the "cold digital" synths - and he gave DIVA and Serum as examples of a warm synth as opposed to a cold synth.

Which is a concept that, frankly, I thought was vanished by now (as I thought was the "best sounding DAW" too, but apparently some myths never die).

So, we can talk about "cold" sounds opposed to "warm" sounds (although I doubt we can reach any consensus about that). But not about analog=warm vs digital=cold.

Well, there are surely synths which have a warm, or a cold character. Try to make Z3TA warm sounding, for example, good luck. Unless your definition of warm is another than mine, that is. I wonder why so many don't get what is warm or cold though, and why so many argue that it doesn't matter what the synth is, but it's rather down the sound you program. Seriously, why do we even buy synths then? Merely for their features? No way.

BTW, no offense, but, the comparison with a DAW is, again, totally wrong too, because a DAW won't by default have saturation in the mixer, unless it's some kind of modelled analog emulation. Many synths on the other hand do have drive in the mixer, or in the filter. Or a bass boost. Or waveforms, which don't have the plain shape of the typical waveform. Apples and oranges.

[fluffy_little_something]

Does the typical Fairlight voice patch sound warm or cold to people here? I like that sound a lot, but somehow I can't decide whether it sounds warm or cold to me.
Same goes for the DX7 synth basses.

You mean the famous ? Sounds pretty warm to me

Yes, that sound. It sounds both cold and warm to me

[aciddose]

Finished processing 13:37:01

[jancivil]

In my view sample-based synthesis (which might also include wavetable I suppose) is not what a mere rompler/sampler does.

yet, it's not "your view" that defines things.

The former is for creating new sounds, whereas the latter is for reproducing real instruments as authentically as possible. There are people who do entire classical works using romplers. For a layman it is hard to notice that it was not a live orchestra but a sound module playing.

ANYTHING can be used for creating new sounds. You can create new sounds with acoustic instruments - just use them in unusual ways, and you create new sounds with them. And the fact that there are people "who do entire classical works using romplers" doesn't invalidate anything. Do you have any idea of how much work is necessary to "fake" an orchestra, with what you call "a rompler"?

Anyway, a sampler can be used to create "new sounds" MUCH MORE than a "mere" subtractive synth, which sound palette is WAY more limited.

Another instance of something I see here frequently. Someone has a possibly 'typical' limited experience, oriented in synthesizers and here's a worldview, a disposition stated as the fact, and now it's the whole of what there is and that's the end of it for them.

Something I really enjoy doing with particular Kontakt Instruments (it's so unnecessarily dismissive to say 'rompler' and I'm not sure it's accurate for too many things now), for instance by SonicCouture (or Soundiron) is the sound design aspect. They exploit the filters in K5 and have scripted envelope control of the sound itself and for the filter, 'FEG'. So there are many possibilities as to sound control. Not to mention the effects, auto-wah, phaser, chorus, distortion & cabinet-type saturation. Then, say with Soundiron there's all this convolution of weird spaces, synthetic spaces even to draw from.

I saw someone with an upright bass get some things with col legno bow on the other side of the bridge I had not heard, for an instance of new sounds with acoustic instruments. Then we may get into brass half-valving, multiphonics on wind instruments... there is a guy, Urs something who's very into birds on his soprano sax...

that doesn't get into the manipulations under the hood of normal use for orchestration...

[foosnark]

You mean the famous ARR1?

The squeaking chair sounds cold

The synth sounds like one of those many, many synth sounds which I would not use either the word "warm" or "cold" to describe. Ignoring the fact that it's a famous sound, we know exactly what synth it is, and can see it in the video -- analog synths simply don't make those sorts of sounds. Except maybe for good old' analog rompler Mellotron

One of the reasons I roll my eyes at "digital can never be as good as analog" arguments.

[donkey tugger]

[ghettosynth]

Sonic temperature is a very real phenomenon. IIRC studies showed that music produced with analog synths and/or their software counterparts is around 15-20% warmer. This is why the early vinyl albums from artists such as Tangerine Dream and Jean-Michel Jarre tended to degrade faster, as the extra heat rendered the vinyl more malleable and thus erosion from needle friction became a problem.

Yes, record friction should be taken seriously. This is why modern record players don't have 78RPM speeds any longer. After analog synths became more popular, the higher speeds could actually be dangerous. IIRC several house fires resulted from people playing Gershon Kingsley records on 78 RPM in the early 70s. Shortly after, many countries banned the manufacturer and sale of new record players with a 78RPM speeds.

This is also the origin of the contemporary slang of referring to club bangers as "fire." DJs could literally feel the heat coming off of the warmest and fattest records being played on fresh vinyl in the club. Most people don't handle their records quite as much as DJs and so they may be less sensitive to these effects when records are played on normal speed.

[aciddose]

[AnX]

Does the typical Fairlight voice patch sound warm or cold to people here? I like that sound a lot, but somehow I can't decide whether it sounds warm or cold to me.
Same goes for the DX7 synth basses.

Does it matter?

The question should be, "does this sound fit into my song?"

Its really that simple.

Adjectives dont make a noise.

[AnX]

Sonic temperature is a very real phenomenon. IIRC studies showed that music produced with analog synths and/or their software counterparts is around 15-20% warmer. This is why the early vinyl albums from artists such as Tangerine Dream and Jean-Michel Jarre tended to degrade faster, as the extra heat rendered the vinyl more malleable and thus erosion from needle friction became a problem.

Yes, record friction should be taken seriously. This is why modern record players don't have 78RPM speeds any longer. After analog synths became more popular, the higher speeds could actually be dangerous. IIRC several house fires resulted from people playing Gershon Kingsley records on 78 RPM in the early 70s. Shortly after, many countries banned the manufacturer and sale of new record players with a 78RPM speeds.

But...

Not true. The Audio Technica LP120 has 33/45/78.

[ghettosynth]

Sonic temperature is a very real phenomenon. IIRC studies showed that music produced with analog synths and/or their software counterparts is around 15-20% warmer. This is why the early vinyl albums from artists such as Tangerine Dream and Jean-Michel Jarre tended to degrade faster, as the extra heat rendered the vinyl more malleable and thus erosion from needle friction became a problem.

Yes, record friction should be taken seriously. This is why modern record players don't have 78RPM speeds any longer. After analog synths became more popular, the higher speeds could actually be dangerous. IIRC several house fires resulted from people playing Gershon Kingsley records on 78 RPM in the early 70s. Shortly after, many countries banned the manufacturer and sale of new record players with a 78RPM speeds.

But...

Not true. The Audio Technica LP120 has 33/45/78.

Yes, with vinyl falling out of favor, some manufacturers were willing to skirt the law to keep sales up. This has largely been forgotten about, but it's not something to toy with. With the vinyl and analog renaissance happening at the same time, high speed turntables could spell disaster.