Cockos Reaper

[machinesworking]

Actually, WhiteTie designed the REAPER interface, his goal was providing power and flexibility to the user, not conforming with standards of an OS designed for touch screens and consumer market that only a small percentage of people use around the world.

Absolutely no offense meant, but you're not even close to right there.
First off OSX is not iOS, Windows 10 is infinitely more designed for touch screens than OSX, there's no argument to be had there. Secondly I'm talking about standards across all applications on OSX. I can't vouch for all Windows programs, but I would guess most keep to Windows UI guidelines when doing basic tasks like click dragging to make a copy of a file or MIDI note, or 'item' as Reaper calls it's object oriented MIDI. This way when moving from Premiere to Cubase etc. the experience is more about learning new application specific key commands rather than relearning how to use OS level mouse modifiers or trackpad gestures. Third and last, you bring up the Graphic User Interface, the quote is about developing a theme that's easily modified by the end user, not close to what I'm talking about at all. I'm talking about Reaper not responding to common OS level mouse modifiers and key commands, things like open plug in windows not properly responding to being brought to the front above the MIDI editor etc. by OSX commands, that every other program on OSX does just fine. I'm guessing it's not broken on the Windows side, I don't know?
That Reaper has decided to eschew OS level mouse modifiers on the OSX side at least, in no way should result in the dull and tawdry time tested pot shots at OSX users for whatever warped reason people have for making them, I couldn't care less about your choice of OS, but I hope that any cross platform DAW we talk about isn't in any way not up to Windows standards, and I would hope you felt the same about the OSX version.

[Rockatansky]

None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free.

There's no use arguing about operating systems with Windows users. They have all the freedoms they could ever wish for, they can combine all the random hardware and all the random drivers and all the random nonsense. Us silly Mac users (or should I say toy tinkerers) only buy Apple for the prestige, not for power or flexibility or productivity. It's never going to change, just let it go.

In terms of OSX users, you're looking at a group of people who besides maybe using OSX for certain applications, are not wanting to think about OS level things at all

Not entirely true, but mostly. I would even argue that OSX power users are more comfortable with Terminal windows than Windows power users, and are more comfortable rummaging around in non-abstracted system folders with their keyboard and things like that. I deal A LOT with my operating system, it's just A LOT more comfortable than on Windows, because it doesn't constantly scream for attention. Although, this was my impression in the Steve Jobs era, and it seems like Tim Cook is doing his best to do things very differently.

and every application on OSX besides Reaper uses Option as the modifier key as per the OS level standards. Just from a basic psychological perspective choosing to ignore this is hurting Reapers traction on OSX, no doubt about it.

Not much of an argument there. I agree that software should use the system's "native" keyboard modifiers where possible.

Although personally, I have no issues switching between Alt/Option-drag in OSX to Cmd-drag in Reaper, I do that automatically, simply because I learned it that way. When I switched from Reaper on Windows to Reaper on OSX, of course everything on OSX felt different at first. So I kinda "learned OSX modifiers" and "learned Reaper modifiers on OSX" all at the same time, which makes everything feel right to me the way it is. Weirdly, I also have no confusion to report when switching back and forth to other DAWs or editors and Copy-dragging there.

[enroe]

... but I would guess most keep to Windows UI guidelines when doing basic tasks like click dragging to make a copy of a file or MIDI note, or 'item' as Reaper calls it's object oriented MIDI.

Absolutley true. If anyone opens Reaper at first he will be
annoyed by its weird mouse-modifier settings.



But for me it took 10 minutes to change the modifiers to
windows-standard - and since then I didn't waste any thought
on that issue.

[machinesworking]

... but I would guess most keep to Windows UI guidelines when doing basic tasks like click dragging to make a copy of a file or MIDI note, or 'item' as Reaper calls it's object oriented MIDI.

Absolutley true. If anyone opens Reaper at first he will be
annoyed by its weird mouse-modifier settings.



But for me it took 10 minutes to change the modifiers to
windows-standard - and since then I didn't waste any thought
on that issue.

Good to know, hopefully it's as smooth to change the various settings on OSX!
Jumping between Reaper, DP, and Live, and sometimes using Logic, I would like to not relearn click drag to copy and other editing standards every time I open Reaper.

[baaz]

Absolutely no offense meant, but you're not even close to right there.
First off OSX is not iOS, Windows 10 is infinitely more designed for touch screens than OSX, there's no argument to be had there.

Apple have made it quite clear that touch screens and voice commands(siri) are the future of user interface for their devices, that's what their "UI standards" are sticking to doesn't matter MacOS/iOS. and i haven't yet seen anyone complaining about windows application not adhering to Windows Fluent or Metro or Ribbon UI standards but complaints about not following Mac OS "UI standards" are quite common. for example viewtopic.php?f=79&t=478692 and all of those arguments often end with something like this

You want a DAW which sticks perfectly to the OSX specifications? Buy Logic Pro! It is made by Apple themselves!
http://www.apple.com/logic-pro/

Secondly I'm talking about standards across all applications on OSX.

IMHO it would be a disaster if cross platform apps redesign their UI around OS design guidelines, I would much prefer a version of reaper that works the same way on Mac OS, Windows and so on, makes a lot of sense for me so in case i switch to Mac OS(or vice versa) i wont have relearn how to use the interface, rather than having a Mac OS UI version, a seperate UI according Windows guidelines (Fluent Design System), perhaps Material design for a future Google Chrome OS port lol

Third and last, you bring up the Graphic User Interface, the quote is about developing a theme that's easily modified by the end user, not close to what I'm talking about at all.

I guess you skipped the first part of the quote where White Tie is talking about his design goals "The default theme for REAPER 5 has been designed to be more easily edited by you, the user."
if you're still missing my point here's a TLDR: White Tie(the guy who designed reaper interface/default theme) doesn't give two craps about what apple thinks about user interface design, he's empowering reaper's users to make UI choices not apple.

I couldn't care less about your choice of OS, but I hope that any cross platform DAW we talk about isn't in any way not up to Windows standards, and I would hope you felt the same about the OSX version.

Actually no, windows users don't give a crap about a "Unified UI" thing. As a matter of fact it's quite opposite. Most windows users actually share a common hatred for "Unified UI" apps. First thing i do after i install/update windows is, i run a couple of custom scripts one of them removes all Windows Store Fluent/Metro Apps. Most of "first things to do after installing windows 10" articles on the web explains how to get rid of those Windows store "Unified UI" apps.

[chk071]

... but I would guess most keep to Windows UI guidelines when doing basic tasks like click dragging to make a copy of a file or MIDI note, or 'item' as Reaper calls it's object oriented MIDI.

Absolutley true. If anyone opens Reaper at first he will be
annoyed by its weird mouse-modifier settings.



But for me it took 10 minutes to change the modifiers to
windows-standard - and since then I didn't waste any thought
on that issue.

The Reaper story, reloaded.

[inkwarp]

if i cannot find a way to 'return cursor to zero' it's like an itch i can't scratch.

Hit home key?

Yeah, that's the one i use. But i have to think about it every time i have moved the play cursor when i would just like it to be a setting that i don't have to think about. like in pretty much every other daw. it seems trivial, but it's those tiny irritants that can interrupt workflow when the idea is to concentrate on the music instead of continuously having to think about all these little niggles. still, i am sure there is a reason that it's programmed this way...

edit: i am reading up on the mouse modifiers now.. i am sure that will make things a lot smoother : ]

[fmr]

In terms of OSX users, you're looking at a group of people who besides maybe using OSX for certain applications, are not wanting to think about OS level things at all

Not entirely true, but mostly. I would even argue that OSX power users are more comfortable with Terminal windows than Windows power users, and are more comfortable rummaging around in non-abstracted system folders with their keyboard and things like that. I deal A LOT with my operating system, it's just A LOT more comfortable than on Windows, because it doesn't constantly scream for attention. Although, this was my impression in the Steve Jobs era, and it seems like Tim Cook is doing his best to do things very differently.

At least you acknowledge that. Not just the OS, but the entire computer part of the job. Look at what they offer nowadays, and at what prices

And Apple was caught blatantly in a planned obsolescence act.

[fmr]

I couldn't care less about your choice of OS, but I hope that any cross platform DAW we talk about isn't in any way not up to Windows standards, and I would hope you felt the same about the OSX version.

Actually no, windows users don't give a crap about a "Unified UI" thing. As a matter of fact it's quite opposite. Most windows users actually share a common hatred for "Unified UI" apps. First thing i do after i install/update windows is, i run a couple of custom scripts one of them removes all Windows Store Fluent/Metro Apps. Most of "first things to do after installing windows 10" articles on the web explains how to get rid of those Windows store "Unified UI" apps.

Very true. I think this "unified UI" crap talk is very much a OS X user thing. They become so much enslaved in the "Apple way" (Think Different... think Apple) that they think the world will collapse if things are different or behave differently.

[machinesworking]

I couldn't care less about your choice of OS, but I hope that any cross platform DAW we talk about isn't in any way not up to Windows standards, and I would hope you felt the same about the OSX version.

Actually no, windows users don't give a crap about a "Unified UI" thing. As a matter of fact it's quite opposite. Most windows users actually share a common hatred for "Unified UI" apps. First thing i do after i install/update windows is, i run a couple of custom scripts one of them removes all Windows Store Fluent/Metro Apps. Most of "first things to do after installing windows 10" articles on the web explains how to get rid of those Windows store "Unified UI" apps.

Very true. I think this "unified UI" crap talk is very much a OS X user thing. They become so much enslaved in the "Apple way" (Think Different... think Apple) that they think the world will collapse if things are different or behave differently.

I'm specifically talking about click dragging to copy a file. You two are going off the deep end. Do you two like relearning this key command for every new program you use on Windows or do you like it when the standard command you use all the time is implemented in the program you are using? As has already bean mentioned Reaper uses Windows standards to click drag to copy a MIDI note, Item, and CC. It does not use OSX standards to do this, on OSX it doesn't even use the Windows keys. Because it does not, if one is to use Reaper key commands on OSX with the standard lay out, you're learning a program specific way to do something that has no Windows or OSX equivalent. It's a bad interface choice to not comply with either standard keyboard modifier to click drag to copy, period. I 100% would have no issue if Reaper had decided to stick to Windows standards with the port, since then it would be consistent, and the motor reflex would have use when I'm using Windows. There's no rational argument against this. You two are going off on some tangent about your own personal dislike of Apple and Windows bloat, touch screen interfaces etc. disregarding we're talking about universal key commands here, not Windows or Apple store programs, Windows 10 touch screen interfaces on desktop, etc. etc.

It's the equivalent of me bringing up Clippy, or the search engine cute dog anime from XP when we're discussing Cubase Windows specific issues as proof that your point is irrelevant.

[emCar]

for the most part i love FL BUT it has some INCREDIBLY irritating things mostly to do with shortcuts and accessing menus can be a bit of a chore. the number of times that i have to change snap setting is infuriating at times yet there seem to be a lot of keys that have no assignment. this baffles me. a right-click menu would be amazing

There is a right-click menu in FL Studio. Hold the middle mouse button down while the cursor is above the piano roll or playlist (if you're using FL Studio, you really should be using a mouse that has at least 3 buttons because the middle/3rd button resets to default most controls in FL) then right-click. The menu gives access to a ton of options and controls, including changing the snap division size.

[fmr]

I'm specifically talking about click dragging to copy a file. You two are going off the deep end. Do you two like relearning this key command for every new program you use on Windows or do you like it when the standard command you use all the time is implemented in the program you are using? As has already bean mentioned Reaper uses Windows standards to click drag to copy a MIDI note, Item, and CC. It does not use OSX standards to do this, on OSX it doesn't even use the Windows keys. Because it does not, if one is to use Reaper key commands on OSX with the standard lay out, you're learning a program specific way to do something that has no Windows or OSX equivalent. It's a bad interface choice to not comply with either standard keyboard modifier to click drag to copy, period. I 100% would have no issue if Reaper had decided to stick to Windows standards with the port, since then it would be consistent, and the motor reflex would have use when I'm using Windows. There's no rational argument against this. You two are going off on some tangent about your own personal dislike of Apple and Windows bloat, touch screen interfaces etc. disregarding we're talking about universal key commands here, not Windows or Apple store programs, Windows 10 touch screen interfaces on desktop, etc. etc.

It's the equivalent of me bringing up Clippy, or the search engine cute dog anime from XP when we're discussing Cubase Windows specific issues as proof that your point is irrelevant.

I don't know what kind of key commands you are used to, but in Windows, REAPER uses drag to move a clip/region from a place to another (including tracks), and Ctrl + drag to copy a clip/region to another place (including tracks).

I usually try the key combinations Ctrl + something; Alt + something; and Shift + something to perform an action, and usually one of them works.

This is consistent to what other programs do (including Cubase, except that in Cubase is Alt + drag to copy a region, instead of Ctrl + drag, but it's no big deal to me. If I try one and it doesn't do what I want, I undo and try the other). What is exactly the problem with OS X? Aren't the Ctrl or Alt keys working?

Besides, you can change whatever key combination you want. From the REAPER help: "Note: use Preferences/Editing Behavior/Mouse Modifiers to add or change any of the following mouse key modifiers."

[.jon]

I just wish Justin and crew would have spent even a day with a UI expert of some sort, it's the kind of thing that happens when a developer thinks like a developer and designs an interface.

Actually, WhiteTie designed the REAPER interface, his goal was providing power and flexibility to the user, not conforming with standards of an OS designed for touch screens and consumer market that only a small percentage of people use around the world.

The default theme for REAPER 5 has been designed to be more easily edited by you, the user. I have done this by controlling some sections of the theme’s complex underlying WALTER script using a system of macros that I call ‘Flow’.

Flow responds to the most common requests that I hear from users – to be able to decide the order in which interface elements are hidden when a panel is shrunk, and the size of elements – without learning WALTER. With Flow, you can do just that merely by changing a few clearly labelled numbers in a text file.

Actually that dude did not design the interface, the only thing he did was the default skin, a process which unfortunately didn't include anything that could be called designing. That skin displays his inability to conform to any common standards and a lack of competence to even follow best practices.

The interface itself is just copied from Vegas with hacks on top of hacks by a developer who not only doesn't know a thing about UX of UI design, but doesn't even care. After all, why should he? He makes the program for his own use, not for users.

[gentleclockdivider]

I just wish Justin and crew would have spent even a day with a UI expert of some sort, it's the kind of thing that happens when a developer thinks like a developer and designs an interface.

Actually, WhiteTie designed the REAPER interface, his goal was providing power and flexibility to the user, not conforming with standards of an OS designed for touch screens and consumer market that only a small percentage of people use around the world.

The default theme for REAPER 5 has been designed to be more easily edited by you, the user. I have done this by controlling some sections of the theme’s complex underlying WALTER script using a system of macros that I call ‘Flow’.

Flow responds to the most common requests that I hear from users – to be able to decide the order in which interface elements are hidden when a panel is shrunk, and the size of elements – without learning WALTER. With Flow, you can do just that merely by changing a few clearly labelled numbers in a text file.

Actually that dude did not design the interface, the only thing he did was the default skin, a process which unfortunately didn't include anything that could be called designing. That skin displays his inability to conform to any common standards and a lack of competence to even follow best practices.

The interface itself is just copied from Vegas with hacks on top of hacks by a developer who not only doesn't know a thing about UX of UI design, but doesn't even care. After all, why should he? He makes the program for his own use, not for users.

LOL , are you talking about white tie ?
That DUDE does know how to create a user interface
Besides the default reaper 5 gui he also does commercial work, iow he's as pro as a pro can be .

[macmuse]

if i cannot find a way to 'return cursor to zero' it's like an itch i can't scratch.

Hit home key?

I have a thing about using the numerical pad on the keyboard for returning to start of project because in Logic, clicking the num pad 0 twice does that (clicking it once will stop in place, and twice goes back to beginning). I've gotten so used to it for 20 years that it bugs me if I can't do that in another DAW.

When I had used Reaper, in the action Transport: Go to start of Project I added the Num Pad "." in addition to the Home button that was already set there. (Reaper is nice that it lets you have multiple shortcuts without replacing it, instead of just having one).

I set the 0 key to Stop. (I usually don't use the spacebar, old Logic ways from way back). I don't use Reaper anymore but that at least was a satisfactory workaround. In Studio One I have it working like in Logic.