The way a vocal leveler SHOULD work.

[Annabanna]

There seems to be some confusion. Every piece of what I'm suggesting is already working in other plugs reliably for many years now. I'm just applying the same proven components toward a new task.

The one case it would not handle well would be legato phrases with wild dynamics and absolutely zero spaces between words. It's just not an issue for me at all, but for anyone that might have that issue, allowing them to just kick in a basic existing leveling tool for such phrases would smooth that out. I'm not sure I see the problem. Worst case, the user uses the best thing currently available for the occasional phrase. I wouldn't... but one could.

This sort of split region zero-crossing editing is exactly how I, and quite a few other folks I've talked to are already doing it manually.

When I say "zero crossing", I mean some basic minimum silence, not EVERY crossing. There are drum editing tools that are already performing more complex tasks with markers, and there are existing batch scripts that scan for silences of a given length to do things like stripping silences. How difficult is level detection? No idea, but I would guess there are batch scripts for that as well.

Like I said. I have no doubt it's EASIER in general to develop single stage plugs, but it's not like 2 stage solutions are a new concept. I'm pretty sure I've been using some for over 15 years, and not one of them has ever broken anything.

[steve2KVR]

...(sigh)...here again?...if you really like pain, the fear and loathing, that comes when the client feels you may have lost that "take"...then...wait for it...move anything from the exact location where melodyne left it...and, fwiw, from my experience this conversation is way too simplistic. The "solutions" I apply really depend on the actual source material, it's context, and the result the client is looking for...hth.../s~

[Annabanna]

I never much liked Melodyne for other reasons. Can't say I ever had it bork a project, but the last time I used it was over a decade ago.

[steve2KVR]

...mmmmmm...lost'sa things change and move on in a decade...lost'sa things...../s~

[Annabanna]

I've just generally moved toward a more natural sound over time, that's all. Doesn't mean I don't use some synthetic tools. I use some crazy sophisticated stuff. I just don't want to HEAR those tools unless it's for a purposeful effect. Melodyne was always one of those things I'd hear a mix later and cringe wondering how I'd missed some artifact.

[spencerlee]

The problem is simple.
Everybody is now used to the non-natural sound.
Everything is hyped.
I love listening to and recording Jazz with no processing.
But the thing is if you add some processing to Jazz it becomes more enjoyable to listen too.
Taking that to the larger scale is where everybody is now at.
You present something to a client where the mix is natural and sounds 12db softer than everything else and you are out of a job.
Taking your skillset and encompassing the modern techniques makes you ahead in the game.
Us old guys have skills that can be applied so easily to todays techniques.
Spencer

[Annabanna]

The problem is simple.
Everybody is now used to the non-natural sound.
Everything is hyped.
I love listening to and recording Jazz with no processing.
But the thing is if you add some processing to Jazz it becomes more enjoyable to listen too.
Taking that to the larger scale is where everybody is now at.
You present something to a client where the mix is natural and sounds 12db softer than everything else and you are out of a job.
Taking your skillset and encompassing the modern techniques makes you ahead in the game.
Us old guys have skills that can be applied so easily to todays techniques.
Spencer

Q: How do you top giving unsolicited advice based on the random assumption that the person you're talking to is unfamiliar with either compression or limiting?

A: Double-down, and assume they also require your wisdom to alleviate their ignorance of ANY modern techniques, genre specific concerns, or even the basic concept of loudness.

If I ever need advice on how to roll cables, I'll just ask about something much more nuanced, and know I can count on you to read between the lines, ignore the actual question, and instead tell me instead what I really need to hear.




That being said, this is solid "advice" ...

... for anyone with no experience...

... shooting for the status quo...

... 18 months ago.




Almost reads like Cliffs Notes of a music production book entitled "More is more." It's sure to be a best seller.... assuming readers don't like subtlety any more than listeners.

[spencerlee]

I am not saying any of that.
I am saying that you I assume and I have been doing this for so long that we both acquired a great expanse of audio knowledge through the sheer years of working with audio.
I also believe you understand all the latest techniques in audio production.
All I am suggesting is rather than trying to go for a Natural Sound which most of the world does not want, is apply your knowledge to the current techniques which you will do better than the people that do not have or understand the older way of doing things.
You seem to be trying to get a plugin designed for a way of doing audio that most of the world does not want and I am not saying natural is wrong.
Spencer

[Annabanna]

????

Most of the world does not want any actual leveling as opposed to just brute forcing everything with compression/limiting? This thread is about leveling, so if that's not what you mean, then you're reacting to something no one is saying.

If it is... I never would have guessed it would even be possible to produce music for decades while seeing no value in leveling, but keep trailblazing... and bottoming out your compressor.

Again, you can still compress into oblivion if you WANT that sound. Nothing I've said stops any of that from happening. It just stops the compressor from over-reacting, and keeps all your precious modern techniques operating within their sweet spots. It makes what you are doing work BETTER.

[steve2KVR]

...I'm confused...what does "leveling" now mean in the context of this, errh, discussion? At first I thought I was following along ok, now, not so much.../s~

[Annabanna]

...I'm confused...what does "leveling" now mean in the context of this, errh, discussion? At first I thought I was following along ok, now, not so much.../s~

You too?

Leveling means just exactly the same basic thing it always has: Pure gain change do reduce level variation without compression.

I expect that anyone might have an informed opinion as to HOW any given goal could be achieved. If anything, I always try to encourage that kind of discussion.

Debating whether the CONCEPT of leveling (manual or otherwise) has any value... never thought I'd see the day.

[MeldaProduction]

Annabanna, what spencer and steve is telling you is basically that people don't really want this. And I agree. The solution, if it works (and you seem overly confident it's that simple, while I'm telling you from a point of view of a developer, who made Melda monsters, that it may not be so simple), would be too clumsy and problematic. In this case I think the problem with storing the "data" in the project is feasible. But the detection of level would be an issue, and mainly people just want to put there a plugin that does the magic and get it over with.
Most vocals do vary dynamics within phrases, so your solution would be like a superclumsy preprocessing for another leveler. Sure, a few people like you may use it, most wouldn't.

And the distortion isn't a problem really these days. If you don't overuse MAutoVolume, it's usually really low, lost in the mix. I see a bigger problem with MAutoVolume and basically any other leveling solution, in the fluctuations of dynamics. But believe it or not, this "your" plugin would have the same problem... It seems people believe we have a good model for actual loudness, based on human perception. Well, guess what, we don't. LUFS? It's so supersimplified, not even remotely correct... And the worst thing, every human feels loudness differently... At the end levelling is way more problematic than it looks.

[Annabanna]

dbl post

[Annabanna]

It's exactly what I've done manually for decades, and I don't recall even once having to resort to automating within a segment... ever. It just comes down to marker sensitivity which is literally which is no different than any loop utility. Sure, there will be the occasional marker that needs manual adjustment or placement, but when's the last time that stopped anyone from making a loop work?

I never said creating a 2 stage plug was easy. I actually said the opposite (and assume it's the hardest part), but added that it has been done before, so it is at least possible.

I'll take your word for level detection being problematic (and database issues), though there are obviously no shortage of plugs that manage to detect level in real-time. It may be the case that they are inaccurate, yet their utility is well established.

I never claimed any of the current loudness standards was perfect, yet engineers still find plugs based upon them useful.

There's nothing special about loudness. No perception is ever universal... We perceive color differently, yet we still have Photoshop, Resolve, etc.

[MeldaProduction]

You know, it's all matter of what we find useful, because there's some considerable development needed. And frankly, I just don't and others apparently neither... But as I said, if I ever find some time for the VocAlign thingy, I'll remember this.