README - For non-programmers with great ideas

DSP, Plug-in and Host development discussion.
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aciddose
KVRAF
12256 posts since 7 Dec, 2004

Post Fri Mar 29, 2019 11:20 am

Izak Synthiemental wrote:
Fri Mar 29, 2019 7:47 am
Are you implying that a person needs 1.000 bucks just to cover the basic living expenses?
No, I was trying to give a rough impression to start from so location and specifics don't need to be accounted for accurately.

I was suggesting it as a minimum starting point to allow people to understand exactly what they're asking for when they assume "programming is easy, I just need a programmer all the ideas are there already."

It's a very labor intensive creative pursuit that takes inordinate amounts of time and very specialized skills. If we're talking 8-hour days to be fair, the programmer needs to be compensated at minimum for their cost of living during the period they're working on the project.

Here where I am recently it hasn't been possible to find a flat/apartment for less than $1200 if you're lucky enough to find one at all. That doesn't include other expenses, that's rent alone. So offering less than that you'll likely narrow your options significantly and likely to the point there simply are no programmers who could afford to do the work at all.
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Izak Synthiemental
KVRian
541 posts since 4 Aug, 2010

Re: README - For non-programmers with great ideas

Post Fri Mar 29, 2019 12:44 pm

aciddose wrote:
Fri Mar 29, 2019 11:20 am
...
It's a very labor intensive creative pursuit that takes inordinate amounts of time and very specialized skills. If we're talking 8-hour days to be fair, the programmer needs to be compensated at minimum for their cost of living during the period they're working on the project.

Here where I am recently it hasn't been possible to find a flat/apartment for less than $1200 if you're lucky enough to find one at all. That doesn't include other expenses, that's rent alone. So offering less than that you'll likely narrow your options significantly and likely to the point there simply are no programmers who could afford to do the work at all.
Yes, I definitely have a lot of respect for all the developers, since it seems to require a lot of concerted effort to acquire the necessary knowledge to code audio plugins. I have high regard for people who still have the ability to focus on one field of interest and who manage to maintain that interest for learning over the cause of many years, especially with all the distractions and entertainment around these days.

But I also believe that the ones who are drawn to that field most likely already have the motivation and interest that enables them to do what it takes: the hard work and learn all the stuff. It's not like people are forcing themselves to learn DSP against their own will, just to have a job.

Also, my impression is that it has become slightly easier to learn DSP coding with frameworks like Juce and IPlug or with functional programming languages available, that take some of the complexities of abstraction out of the equation. It's probably still a very sophisticated and demanding job, but probably slightly more accessible to beginners than it was ten years ago I guess?

I guess if anyone really wanted to contract a developer to realize one's own plugin concept, one could contract a computer science student from one of the schools that teach DSP, maybe for a masters thesis project or something similar.

Now I'm really curious as to where you are living currently, since it seems to be quite an expensive location?
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aciddose
KVRAF
12256 posts since 7 Dec, 2004

Re: README - For non-programmers with great ideas

Post Fri Mar 29, 2019 3:05 pm

Near Vancouver, one of the most expensive places to live on earth right now. The really scary thing is these extreme prices have started to spread last fall into the surrounding areas... in tiny little towns where there is no work and you need to drive 40+km to get to a grocery the rent for a single bedroom apartment is also near $1200. During the 2000s that would have been rent for a full two story house.
Free plug-ins for Windows, MacOS and Linux. Xhip Synthesizer v8.0 and Xhip Effects Bundle v6.7.

resynthesis
KVRist
412 posts since 17 Sep, 2007 from Planet Thanet

Re: README - For non-programmers with great ideas

Post Fri Mar 29, 2019 3:39 pm

IzakS, DSP is probably more established than, for example, web technology. It's heavily in demand in a number of areas and has been for decades! As well as music apps, see radar, sonar, econometrics, speech, seismology, telecomms, etc.

goldenanalog
KVRAF
1881 posts since 7 Dec, 2005 from somewhere between analog and digital

Re: README - For non-programmers with great ideas

Post Fri Mar 29, 2019 3:56 pm

8)

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Tj Shredder
KVRAF
2773 posts since 6 Jan, 2017 from Outer Space

Re: README - For non-programmers with great ideas

Post Mon Apr 08, 2019 5:22 am

aciddose wrote:
Fri Mar 29, 2019 3:05 pm
Near Vancouver, one of the most expensive places to live on earth right now. The really scary thing is these extreme prices have started to spread last fall into the surrounding areas... in tiny little towns where there is no work and you need to drive 40+km to get to a grocery the rent for a single bedroom apartment is also near $1200. During the 2000s that would have been rent for a full two story house.
The refeudalization is happening around landlords. Now I know why they are called landlords...
Squeeze all what is possible out of those who work without putting much work in... Or even better find someone to play the landlord game and burry them under debt...

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DJ Warmonger
KVRAF
3115 posts since 7 Jun, 2012 from Warsaw

Re: README - For non-programmers with great ideas

Post Mon Apr 08, 2019 5:32 am

DSP is difficult maths in first place and require in-depth uderstanding, as well as proficiency to get ahead with actually useful results. That's something people learn only via engineer degree, online blogs are often insufficient. Also DSP skills are rare for same reason, unlike at least basic web development.
I guess if anyone really wanted to contract a developer to realize one's own plugin concept, one could contract a computer science student from one of the schools that teach DSP
There is a reason why senior developers can earn 4 times more juniors do, and that's efficiency. If you pick up a rookie, expect the project to never be finished or be 1 year late and still buggy :hihi:
Or even better find someone to play the landlord game and burry them under debt
That's another topic, however as far as I can see software developers expect to stand above the line that separates the landlords from their slaves. If you want to attract a developer, you need to offer them more they earn currently.
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docbot
KVRist
60 posts since 4 Apr, 2006

Re: README - For non-programmers with great ideas

Post Mon Jul 01, 2019 5:21 am

Just wondering, how much do you think is a reasonable general start offer if one wants to find a programmer to code a synth of medium complexity, if one already has figured out the whole gui and usability aspects, click actions, interface etc?

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BertKoor
KVRAF
11117 posts since 8 Mar, 2005 from Utrecht, Holland

Re: README - For non-programmers with great ideas

Post Mon Jul 01, 2019 6:30 am

docbot wrote:
Mon Jul 01, 2019 5:21 am
Just wondering, how much do you think is a reasonable general start offer if one wants to find a programmer to code a synth of medium complexity, if one already has figured out the whole gui and usability aspects, click actions, interface etc?
Problem one: finding an experienced developer who is willing to do work that's not his own project.
Then let him do the estimates.

To give you a rough idea: assuming it's two months work (320 hours) with an hourly rate of $100... you can do the math ;-)
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docbot
KVRist
60 posts since 4 Apr, 2006

Re: README - For non-programmers with great ideas

Post Thu Jul 11, 2019 11:50 am

BertKoor wrote:
Mon Jul 01, 2019 6:30 am
docbot wrote:
Mon Jul 01, 2019 5:21 am
Just wondering, how much do you think is a reasonable general start offer if one wants to find a programmer to code a synth of medium complexity, if one already has figured out the whole gui and usability aspects, click actions, interface etc?
Problem one: finding an experienced developer who is willing to do work that's not his own project.
Then let him do the estimates.

To give you a rough idea: assuming it's two months work (320 hours) with an hourly rate of $100... you can do the math ;-)
so I better learn how to program myself :)

PeterP_swe
KVRist
65 posts since 13 Aug, 2017 from Gothenburg

Re: README - For non-programmers with great ideas

Post Fri Jul 12, 2019 1:08 am

You can get quite far with something like NI Reaktor or Max4Live as a non-programmer.

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