Native Instruments Layoffs?

VST, AU, AAX, etc. plug-in Virtual Instruments discussion
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Jace-BeOS
KVRAF
5165 posts since 7 Jan, 2005 from Corporate States of America

Post Mon Sep 16, 2019 1:21 pm

whyterabbyt wrote:
Fri Sep 06, 2019 6:06 am
Stefken wrote:
Fri Sep 06, 2019 5:59 am
They are objective for people with ui knowledge.
Bzzzt. If they're supposedly 'objective' just for a specific group, then they're not objective at all.
Begging your pardon, but: UI design has plenty of research to show there’s some objectivity in it. Human perception is a thing with a lot of study. Just because an uninformed user can not perceive that things could be easier on them (with a better design that they don’t actually have available to them for comparison’s sake) does not mean there aren’t objectively better designs that WOULD make things easier for them.

I’ve spent most of my life watching users be blamed for (and blame themselves for) problems that come down to software (and hardware) being poorly designed. Users who aren’t informed about UI/UX design and human-machine interfacing/psychology/perception will simply presume that things are as good as they can be (putting the designers on a pedestal, out of naivety) and will believe that they themselves are in the wrong, when they’re actually being fairly reasonable from a human cognition, behavioral, and cultural perspective.

When I was last in tech jobs, I made it my thing to be the opposite of the elitist tech geeks who are happy to promote “the user is the problem” attitudes that keep uninformed users feeling intimidated and ignorant.
- dysamoria.com
my music @ SoundCloud

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Hink
Rad Grandad
29254 posts since 6 Sep, 2003 from Downeast Maine

Re: Native Instruments Layoffs?

Post Mon Sep 16, 2019 1:32 pm

Jace-BeOS wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 1:21 pm
whyterabbyt wrote:
Fri Sep 06, 2019 6:06 am
Stefken wrote:
Fri Sep 06, 2019 5:59 am
They are objective for people with ui knowledge.
Bzzzt. If they're supposedly 'objective' just for a specific group, then they're not objective at all.
Begging your pardon, but: UI design has plenty of research to show there’s some objectivity in it. Human perception is a thing with a lot of study. Just because an uninformed user can not perceive that things could be easier on them (with a better design that they don’t actually have available to them for comparison’s sake) does not mean there aren’t objectively better designs that WOULD make things easier for them.

I’ve spent most of my life watching users be blamed for (and blame themselves for) problems that come down to software (and hardware) being poorly designed. Users who aren’t informed about UI/UX design and human-machine interfacing/psychology/perception will simply presume that things are as good as they can be (putting the designers on a pedestal, out of naivety) and will believe that they themselves are in the wrong, when they’re actually being fairly reasonable from a human cognition, behavioral, and cultural perspective.

When I was last in tech jobs, I made it my thing to be the opposite of the elitist tech geeks who are happy to promote “the user is the problem” attitudes that keep uninformed users feeling intimidated and ignorant.
or some might just be able to go with the flow...blame? Seems like a very odd choice of words.
i dont think I have blamed myself, unless you mean when I think "huh, that's different" and adapt. It's doesn't have to be an obstacle, you're talking ui here...I have spent an entire life getting use to new interfaces on 1000's of daily used items... :dog:
Albert Einstein may have been a genius but his brother Frank was a monster

User avatar
Jace-BeOS
KVRAF
5165 posts since 7 Jan, 2005 from Corporate States of America

Re: Native Instruments Layoffs?

Post Mon Sep 16, 2019 1:50 pm

Hink wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 1:32 pm
Jace-BeOS wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 1:21 pm
whyterabbyt wrote:
Fri Sep 06, 2019 6:06 am
Stefken wrote:
Fri Sep 06, 2019 5:59 am
They are objective for people with ui knowledge.
Bzzzt. If they're supposedly 'objective' just for a specific group, then they're not objective at all.
Begging your pardon, but: UI design has plenty of research to show there’s some objectivity in it. Human perception is a thing with a lot of study. Just because an uninformed user can not perceive that things could be easier on them (with a better design that they don’t actually have available to them for comparison’s sake) does not mean there aren’t objectively better designs that WOULD make things easier for them.

I’ve spent most of my life watching users be blamed for (and blame themselves for) problems that come down to software (and hardware) being poorly designed. Users who aren’t informed about UI/UX design and human-machine interfacing/psychology/perception will simply presume that things are as good as they can be (putting the designers on a pedestal, out of naivety) and will believe that they themselves are in the wrong, when they’re actually being fairly reasonable from a human cognition, behavioral, and cultural perspective.

When I was last in tech jobs, I made it my thing to be the opposite of the elitist tech geeks who are happy to promote “the user is the problem” attitudes that keep uninformed users feeling intimidated and ignorant.
or some might just be able to go with the flow...blame? Seems like a very odd choice of words.
i dont think I have blamed myself, unless you mean when I think "huh, that's different" and adapt. It's doesn't have to be an obstacle, you're talking ui here...I have spent an entire life getting use to new interfaces on 1000's of daily used items... :dog:
It’s not that we cannot adapt. We can. Well, most of us. Some people still haven’t adapted to computers of any kind. But the point is that we shouldn’t need to constantly be adapting when the same proven concepts work with a majority of people. It’s why we have ... er... try to have... standards in many industries.
- dysamoria.com
my music @ SoundCloud

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Jace-BeOS
KVRAF
5165 posts since 7 Jan, 2005 from Corporate States of America

Re: Native Instruments Layoffs?

Post Mon Sep 16, 2019 5:48 pm

Jim Rosebrook wrote:
Sat Sep 14, 2019 6:57 am
Here's some more helpful info about what's going on at NI.

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/native-i ... 1568466316

Some impressive upper-level people came aboard in January 2019. Having a large internal shift ready to pivot by August is pretty rapid.

Give it a read.
Impressive?? What’s impressive here is the sheer scale of end-stage capitalism corporate bollocks and the willingness of people to STILL, to this day, lick that boot. :dog:
- dysamoria.com
my music @ SoundCloud

User avatar
Jace-BeOS
KVRAF
5165 posts since 7 Jan, 2005 from Corporate States of America

Re: Native Instruments Layoffs?

Post Mon Sep 16, 2019 5:52 pm

Jim Rosebrook wrote:
Sat Sep 14, 2019 8:19 am
Throw in some forward-thinking AI technology of how these sounds & samples embrace interactivity with each other.
Are you living in some kind of Star Trek fantasy world, or are you just that bought into the tech industry’s buzzword rhetoric?
- dysamoria.com
my music @ SoundCloud

User avatar
Hink
Rad Grandad
29254 posts since 6 Sep, 2003 from Downeast Maine

Re: Native Instruments Layoffs?

Post Mon Sep 16, 2019 5:55 pm

Jace-BeOS wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 1:50 pm
Hink wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 1:32 pm
Jace-BeOS wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 1:21 pm
whyterabbyt wrote:
Fri Sep 06, 2019 6:06 am
Stefken wrote:
Fri Sep 06, 2019 5:59 am
They are objective for people with ui knowledge.
Bzzzt. If they're supposedly 'objective' just for a specific group, then they're not objective at all.
Begging your pardon, but: UI design has plenty of research to show there’s some objectivity in it. Human perception is a thing with a lot of study. Just because an uninformed user can not perceive that things could be easier on them (with a better design that they don’t actually have available to them for comparison’s sake) does not mean there aren’t objectively better designs that WOULD make things easier for them.

I’ve spent most of my life watching users be blamed for (and blame themselves for) problems that come down to software (and hardware) being poorly designed. Users who aren’t informed about UI/UX design and human-machine interfacing/psychology/perception will simply presume that things are as good as they can be (putting the designers on a pedestal, out of naivety) and will believe that they themselves are in the wrong, when they’re actually being fairly reasonable from a human cognition, behavioral, and cultural perspective.

When I was last in tech jobs, I made it my thing to be the opposite of the elitist tech geeks who are happy to promote “the user is the problem” attitudes that keep uninformed users feeling intimidated and ignorant.
or some might just be able to go with the flow...blame? Seems like a very odd choice of words.
i dont think I have blamed myself, unless you mean when I think "huh, that's different" and adapt. It's doesn't have to be an obstacle, you're talking ui here...I have spent an entire life getting use to new interfaces on 1000's of daily used items... :dog:
It’s not that we cannot adapt. We can. Well, most of us. Some people still haven’t adapted to computers of any kind. But the point is that we shouldn’t need to constantly be adapting when the same proven concepts work with a majority of people. It’s why we have ... er... try to have... standards in many industries.
Standards do not mean there will not be adaptations :shrug:
Albert Einstein may have been a genius but his brother Frank was a monster

User avatar
Jace-BeOS
KVRAF
5165 posts since 7 Jan, 2005 from Corporate States of America

Re: Native Instruments Layoffs?

Post Mon Sep 16, 2019 6:12 pm

telecode wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 8:12 am
pixel85 wrote:
Sat Sep 14, 2019 11:47 pm
Forgotten wrote:
Sat Sep 14, 2019 1:39 pm
Hink wrote:
Sat Sep 14, 2019 12:04 pm
pixel85 wrote:
Sat Sep 14, 2019 11:37 am
Forgotten wrote:
Sat Sep 14, 2019 9:42 am

Or it could be that they know a lot more about running successful businesses than musicians, so they will give things the impetus they need based upon demand and profitability. If musicians want the products then it makes sense to develop and update them, but it could be beneficial if those making the decisions don't have any potential conflict of interest if they are musicians themselves and have their own biases.
This. Musicians know sh** about business. How many of them manage big careers without manager or someone outside (or inside) band who is a manager/businessman? Only few. Business require skills and education (knowledge) that musicians not necessary have.
you realize you probably run the chance of offending a lot people here on KvR who happen to be musicians, family people, and very successful business people :dog:
It wasn't quite the point I was making either - musicians would of course be great employees for NI, but it would be beneficial to get guidance from others with a strong business background. My point about musicians is that they might be more likely to have 'pet' projects and push them, but if the company needs to focus more on profits then an objective view of the market would be useful.
My point was that to run a company like NI (which is not a wee family business) it's better to have someone skilled in running a business in first place and then (eventually) being a musician at a second place. Not the other way around.
Yeah. I don't think I agree. I think it's more important having someone experienced in running businesses that are on the music industry. If they had hired a bunch of peeps from Yamaha or Roland or Fender.. I would be , okay, let's see where this goes. But hiring someone with a background in travel e commerce industry or ad sales is iffy. But what do I know. I am just another shmo on the internet.

BTW... You are incorrt about musicians knowing nothing about business. Successful musicians that have lasted a long time and had long careers in music industry are very smart and crafty entrepreneur types. Beck, Trent Reznor et la... Much brighter than MBA shmos jumping around with buzz words and far fetched business ideas. The Google AirBNB MBA shmos will just jump somewhere else when it fails... The musicans have nowhere.to jump ship to.. the business and industry is them. It's their livelyhood.
Fully agreed. The internet corporate types they just added are jargon monkeys who got lucky in one realm and think that they can prescribe success anywhere they go just because they did well at another giant corporation. It’s the false “merit” system. They know nothing about the music business. But hey, neither does the RIAA and the recording industry heavies, since their biggest goal (aside from making ALL the money) seems to be screwing musicians while claiming to defend them against their evil customers.

These new hotshot executives don’t “have business sense AND a love of music tools”. They’re pop stars of the tech industry’s corporatism game. Buzzwords and short-sighted fads are the “expertise” they bring to the table.
- dysamoria.com
my music @ SoundCloud

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Jace-BeOS
KVRAF
5165 posts since 7 Jan, 2005 from Corporate States of America

Re: Native Instruments Layoffs?

Post Mon Sep 16, 2019 6:15 pm

v1o wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 8:44 am
[...] they still make Recycle but no one actually uses it because it's quite overpriced for what it does.
What do you mean they “still make Recycle”? When was the last update? Was it anything more than keeping it running on current OSes? “Make” isn’t the operative word. They still SELL it, yes.
- dysamoria.com
my music @ SoundCloud

User avatar
Jace-BeOS
KVRAF
5165 posts since 7 Jan, 2005 from Corporate States of America

Re: Native Instruments Layoffs?

Post Mon Sep 16, 2019 6:32 pm

telecode wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 7:23 pm
my point is also, they are *real* muscians that are in it for life and that is why they are people that have lasted and survived as trends have come and gone. it has nothing to do with do you like their music or their personality or their politics. They have been around making money and a living from music a lot longer than the Googles and Spotifys and will most probably still be around long after those companies and their ilk are long gone.
I sure hope so. The internet isn’t going anywhere, but the Googles and Spotifys and whatnot are painfully tiresome as new-money 800-pound gorillas. Trends and fads are the most PAINFUL when the money makes their purveyors and supporters believe they’re anything other than temporary. Trying to persist beyond the natural fad lifespan just leads to evil corporate empires and the further decline of civilization. Theirs is the religion of perpetual growth of profits. I hate religion, and I hate theirs the most.
- dysamoria.com
my music @ SoundCloud

samsam
KVRAF
2754 posts since 9 Dec, 2008

Re: Native Instruments Layoffs?

Post Mon Sep 16, 2019 6:35 pm

Spotify, unlike Google, loses money.

User avatar
Jace-BeOS
KVRAF
5165 posts since 7 Jan, 2005 from Corporate States of America

Re: Native Instruments Layoffs?

Post Mon Sep 16, 2019 6:36 pm

telecode wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 7:50 pm
codec_spurt wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 6:07 pm
Trent has that kind of don't mess with me I'm a crazy ex-goth thing going on, and that's probably true to form as well.
FWIW.. I was in the goth crowd in the 90s. The goth community was anything but violent. it was just people that liked books and listening to music that was different than pop and rocker music.
Trent Reznor was pretty violent on stage. I’m not saying that was goth, or that goth was violent, but Trent destroyed tons of gear, and caused injuries with his wild antics. It’s one of the things I dislike about the man who is otherwise my most favorite artist. He grew up since then, but you can see in his older shows what might make people anxious about him. Always the polite interviewee, but the stage persona was not pleasant. Getting smashed in the head by his mic stand that he tossed casually in your direction is not exactly an inspiration to stay with the band.
- dysamoria.com
my music @ SoundCloud

User avatar
Jace-BeOS
KVRAF
5165 posts since 7 Jan, 2005 from Corporate States of America

Re: Native Instruments Layoffs?

Post Mon Sep 16, 2019 6:37 pm

Forgotten wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 11:33 am
Is it me, or does this thread just keep going in circles repeating the same discussions?
I was catching up. I didn’t see this thread until it was 77 pages long.
- dysamoria.com
my music @ SoundCloud

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donkey tugger
Boss Lovin' DR
6145 posts since 15 Mar, 2002 from the grimness of yorkshire

Re: Native Instruments Layoffs?

Post Mon Sep 16, 2019 6:42 pm

Forgotten wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 11:33 am
Is it me, or does this thread just keep going in circles repeating the same discussions?
History repeats itself, first as tragedy, second as arse.

I'll get me communist manifesto...

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Hink
Rad Grandad
29254 posts since 6 Sep, 2003 from Downeast Maine

Re: Native Instruments Layoffs?

Post Mon Sep 16, 2019 7:00 pm

Jace-BeOS wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 6:32 pm
telecode wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 7:23 pm
my point is also, they are *real* muscians that are in it for life and that is why they are people that have lasted and survived as trends have come and gone. it has nothing to do with do you like their music or their personality or their politics. They have been around making money and a living from music a lot longer than the Googles and Spotifys and will most probably still be around long after those companies and their ilk are long gone.
I sure hope so. The internet isn’t going anywhere, but the Googles and Spotifys and whatnot are painfully tiresome as new-money 800-pound gorillas. Trends and fads are the most PAINFUL when the money makes their purveyors and supporters believe they’re anything other than temporary. Trying to persist beyond the natural fad lifespan just leads to evil corporate empires and the further decline of civilization. Theirs is the religion of perpetual growth of profits. I hate religion, and I hate theirs the most.
isn't the part in bold pretty much the essence of what Bezos said of Amazon to his employees last year?

Meanwhile, not there yet but let's be aware of venturing too far into hpc :)
Albert Einstein may have been a genius but his brother Frank was a monster

mrdoghead
KVRist
45 posts since 26 Jun, 2018

Re: Native Instruments Layoffs?

Post Mon Sep 16, 2019 7:32 pm

digitalboytn wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 9:49 am
There are pretty tough trading conditions out there right now and the head winds are forecast to strengthen
Rough conditions like cheap money, a profitable company, and a huge user base? It's far from rough sailing for NI. This is greed tinctured with naïveté for the founders and their NI old hands.

They want to rope in rich guys, their kids, and the people who play music at their weddings. Who better to help with that than someone who helped to make a balls of a previously good public-service-style soundcloud? (SoundCloud - here's a service we do for love - don't worry, share your stuff here! Wait, now we want to turn a profit. So very sorry!) Onward to cradle to grave service of dilettantes - which would be fine if they weren't giving every indication that the company was consolidating a move toward money-pump decline mode.

I have no problem with profit, but NI had profits - lots. Did they need tech marketing and "efficiency" schnooks for this? No.

This seems to be - based only on circumstantial evidence and business history and current norms - a move toward entertainment as a service, with creation tools as services as a sideline, a legacy with some cash value. This would be a stage on the journey to sales of brands and lines and eventually further "reorganization" in the form of liquidation.

Obviously, I would prefer NI to remain a central player in music-production tools. Reading these tea leaves as foretelling big, foul poop ahead requires no supernatural abilities. The sheep say all the wrong things and the lambs are silent.

Or something.

Whatever.

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