[Intro pricing extended] Available now: T-RackS Sunset Sound Studio Reverb

[Peter - IK Multimedia]

I'm old enough to remember when the mods around here would try to help devs who were getting piled on.

Also, I remember when devs knew that they should stop feeding the trolls.

It's a all gone a bit Twitter.

Yeah, I'm sorry for participating to this level. I should have stuck to strictly making sure any defamatory false claims and such were clearly known to be what they were. That's it. If there's a cleanup here some of my posts should be included too, no doubt.

[Meffy]

I'm old enough to remember when the mods around here would try to help devs who were getting piled on.

Sometimes mods communicate with posters behind the scenes, trying to avoid inflaming things further. That's happened once or twice in this thread.

[digitalboytn]

I do feel a little sorry for Peter when he gets lambasted here on KVR,but my sympathy is tempered by the fact that he is an online salesman for a company that has profits as it's bottom line focus...

So consequently,he has to spruik their products and use whatever techniques are at his disposal to do this,whilst adhering to the company's policies and bottom line focus...

There should be no differentiation between companies or individuals on KVR,so why should the mods step in and help out here when this has been an interesting debate,with both sides bringing their agendas to the fore...

Peter's agenda has been put foward to support the companies profits,but the individuals who have spoken up in support of other points of view,will not gain any monetary value from contributions and perspective...

So who is right and who is wrong here ?

One thing that I do feel with this new plugin,is that there is a lot of smoke and mirrors happening here,but like I said earlier,IK are not the only ones pedalling their magic pills and potions to the addicts who are desperate for their next digital fix

[Meffy]

There should be no differentiation between companies or individuals on KVR,so why should the mods step in and help out here when this has been an interesting debate,with both sides bringing their agendas to the fore...

Debate's fine. Abusive behavior isn't. When someone reports a post to the mods, we have to decide which side of that line we think that post is on (often a single post, or series of posts, straddle the line) while trying to be fair to everyone involved. It's a judgement call. I think all KVR mods want to promote free exchange of ideas, but discourage that exchange from going nuclear.

That's all I have to say here. Be good to each other, 'kay?

[Squids]

... Yes, it's much more than just impulse responses, but, as mentioned even that part alone is cool. This is a dedicated software to recreating the ambiences of the studio so there's the sound of the mics they use, the consoles (yes a modified API and vintage Neve... and yes I've personally requested mic pre models to be T-RackS singles on their own so hopefully one day they will!) and also some proprietary aspects to the development that aren't always shared publicly.

No, it's not. Those are generic impulse responses (generic, as in "technologically" using standard IR technology).

You guys sampled the whole signal path: So what? Every IR library has some kind of signal path (meaning: there has to be a microphone to sample the impulse and the signal has to get on a medium somehow, usually through a console, preamp or some kind of audio interface - nothing special about that at all).

IKM wants 150 bucks for 7 (or 12?) impulse responses with added 3D gallery on the GUI - are you guys even serious? No matter how hard you try, there is no reasonable way to justify this scam!

There are plenty of products and IR collections out there that offer orders of magnitude more for free or a fraction of the price that IKM charges! I could list some good free and inexpensive alternatives if you want me to!

Plus IKM forces users to download and install their crappy malware download authorization center or whatever it's called, which requires you to download 2 gigabytes of data for one 20mb plugin!

By the way: I'm not even saying that the quality of those 7 impulse responses is bad, but as good as they may be, it's just not plausible to charge 150 bucks for 7 sampled impulses! But do as you like, in today's idiocracy I'm sure you will find plenty of happy victims for your scam!

Well, you're mistaken if that's all you think it is. There's so much more to it than that. First of all, there is modeling involved in conjunction with IR. Secondly, the impulse response aspect of the product and reverb plug-in itself that plays them within the context of other modeled components, were done spending countless hours back and forth in that studio with their full cooperation. The goal is to recreate the iconic ambiences of that studio and the sound you'd get mixing with them there as accurately as possible. No one else offers that all together in a plug-in so if that's not worth $150 (when that doesn't even cover the cost of recording there in the smallest amount of time you could book) then I don't know what to to say! Anyone who can appreciate the value of having this recreation of such a killer studio's rare verbs can enjoy it while someone like you complains about it.

Bottom line is this. REGARDLESS of how you wanna guess what it is and isn't made up of in terms of both technology and effort to exist, the end result speaks for itself. This is the only official representation of all the killer iconic ambiences (Rare echo chambers, plates, rooms and a spring reverb) that exist at this studio. For anyone who wants the ambient sounds of a great studio like this who has $150 it's a powerful addition to your DAW that WILL make an audible difference in your mixes. I've recorded at Sunset Sound myself and I'm using the plug-in already and I actually make albums so I can say that definitively from personal experience. IT IS GREAT! It's without a doubt worth the money. Without a doubt! If you actually make music that would benefit from the ambient sounds of this studio that is. But, I guess there's one easy way to find out. When it gets release just download the demo and try it out and see if you gotta have it! Use your EARS.

Anyway, I don't really say that to you but rather to anyone reading this and even thinking that you're making sense. You're not because you're only seeing it in a limited way. When you factor in everything being said about it then it's easy to see what value it has to offer overall.

[Squids]

I just skimmed the last four pages since my post. I didn't even realize until now. Izak, you're so irresponsible with your accusations that you deserve to be banned from GS and even here. Who wants someone like you around? Seriously. Accusing legit companies who have been around for decades of "scamming"? You should be banned for that behavior until you learn that no one welcomes it. Nothing wrong with being critical and constructive or simply stating your negative opinion... like once. But, to continue with it over and over is abusive and selfishly pushing your false assumptions on others spreading misinformation. People are blocking you because they don't want to hear it. Can't you take a hint? You said your opinion. We get it. Some of us, like myself, wholeheartedly disagree that it's "only" some IRs and that's it.

I can tell you, or any skeptics, this. The company doesn't have to reveal every detail of how a product is made and they certainly don't have to share details on the success of other products (to the guy who thought Modo Drums was a bomb I also laugh...it's a highly successful and much loved product). Making assumptions only confuses yourself and others. I know that's what many like to do on a forum... make guesses to support your opinion. But, there are also a lot of practical people here who are researching tools they can make use of in their music. There's very little argument to make BEFORE a product is even out and when a company like IK even lets you test drive it for a week or so for FREE it's kind of hard to complain. You could mix a whole record with it for free in that time and, man, if after THAT you think it's worth $150 (while offered at this intro price) then simply get it! If you think that some other reverb will do fine then this product isn't for you! Truth be told you CAN make an album using just Garageband with no plug-ins. But, in this modern world of audio plug-ins, there are options for those of us who are after certain character sounds.

Now, when it comes to the characteristic sounds of Studio 1, 2 and 3 and the equally famous ISO booths and rare echo chambers and gorgeous EMT Plate and Echoplate or that AKG Spring reverb they have with their consoles and filters and microphones, this is the first time a full effort in cooperation with the studio officially has been made! Maybe some people have snuck some isolated IRs there and you can go low budget and load them into a convolution reverb. Go for it! If that's enough for you then why not? Some people use knock off cheaper products that aren't as detailed and accurate and some people want more than that. But, if you think about it, for a measly $150 one can have a product done with the FULL effort to recreate all the ambiences there from A to Z with the cooperation of the studio and that's something that no one else has to offer.

So, to me, it really just comes down to that. The overall value of it is how it sounds and what it can do for your music. No one else has this because no one else has been allowed by the studio to go this deep into capturing and modeling every nuance. That was also not EASY! Some people spend bucks JUST to record reverb returns there since it's one of few studios still around that has real live echo chambers and those real plates are so amazing. I wish I had a real plate and echo chamber in my studio. I don't. Glad I have this plug-in.

I could go on and on but I don't really want to get caught up in a debate when there's really no debate. Why? Buy it or don't buy it. Try it out if you're serious and you'll see if you can't live without it. Fair enough? If you get tripped up in the trash talking and assumptions and theories you might miss out on a super useful great sounding powerful reverb. Really. And yes of course I'm all about the hype and I talk like a salesman. Get over it! I'm upfront about my affiliation and if you think I'm biased then that's fine! Take what I say or Peter says with a grain of salt if you like but do yourself a favor and judge the product for yourself, give this one a chance. I went to such great lengths to get this product to happen you have no idea. I really wanted it to use in my own music productions. I can't afford to record at Sunset Sound often but for many years I've wished I could have something like this. Now we do thankfully so I hope you all get the value of such a thing and try it out yourselves.

[Squids]

There should be no differentiation between companies or individuals on KVR,so why should the mods step in and help out here when this has been an interesting debate,with both sides bringing their agendas to the fore...

Debate's fine. Abusive behavior isn't. When someone reports a post to the mods, we have to decide which side of that line we think that post is on (often a single post, or series of posts, straddle the line) while trying to be fair to everyone involved. It's a judgement call. I think all KVR mods want to promote free exchange of ideas, but discourage that exchange from going nuclear.

That's all I have to say here. Be good to each other, 'kay?

Good old Meffy's still here! Mod legend! Yes, totally man. That's the problem and I actually feel bad for the mods because people should know better. You can't just bash companies who make the kind of products this forum is about! For almost two decades that's been one of the best parts of KVR, the interaction with the people who develop the products we like to discuss. So, if you're respectful then everyone can benefit from some great sharing of thoughts! If people go off the deep end and start making wild accusations, insults and damaging comments with false information then it quickly becomes a sh*t storm (or "goes nuclear" as Meffy put it). Who is that honestly good for? Don't we all care about music-making and the modern tools that are available? Aren't we all gear heads and software junkies? Lighten up! Enjoy it. (And that concludes this late night's return of the SQUIDS MEGA POST!!!! For those who remember haha).

That said, it's a good thing I'm not a mod here because I'd easily ban or warn and then ban anyone who goes as far as accusing legit companies of scamming and things like that. Way out of line and offensive to both the company and fans of that company. It's uncalled for and substandard for such a great community as this. Surely we can do better than be like that. A slap on the wrist is in order and then if it persists then... buh bye! haha. Let me be a mod for a day! I'll clean house! hahahaha. jk relax

[Squids]

I do feel a little sorry for Peter when he gets lambasted here on KVR,but my sympathy is tempered by the fact that he is an online salesman for a company that has profits as it's bottom line focus...

So consequently,he has to spruik their products and use whatever techniques are at his disposal to do this,whilst adhering to the company's policies and bottom line focus...

There should be no differentiation between companies or individuals on KVR,so why should the mods step in and help out here when this has been an interesting debate,with both sides bringing their agendas to the fore...

Peter's agenda has been put foward to support the companies profits,but the individuals who have spoken up in support of other points of view,will not gain any monetary value from contributions and perspective...

So who is right and who is wrong here ?

One thing that I do feel with this new plugin,is that there is a lot of smoke and mirrors happening here,but like I said earlier,IK are not the only ones pedalling their magic pills and potions to the addicts who are desperate for their next digital fix

Peter is here officially to represent IK (and btw I am here unofficially except I do represent Sonic Reality which is my sound development company but otherwise it's not my "job" to be present here). Peter is not a salesman. He doesn't ring up any sales. That is an incorrect assumption (one of many I've seen and I'm just skimming). His job is to be an accessible human who can help and get some real answers so you have a more accurate picture of what you're discussing if it's an IK product. He's not involved in the development and doesn't know every detail but he can do his best to get information to offer you to consider. KVR has always valued representatives from the company being part of this community. That's why he's here. I haven't been here in awhile but maybe I'll hang out more just to help give an accurate picture, at least of products I had a hand in. I am sometimes involved in the development of certain IK products and this is one of them so that's why I felt compelled to chime in.

Now, what you could call "smoke and mirrors", I call this. Manufacturers don't reveal every detail of how they make their products. You get what you get and make up your mind if you want it or not. If I say that some proprietary techniques were used to make this plug-in and it's not the same as any isolated IRs that are out there loaded into a generic convolution reverb, I can say that and not have to prove it to you by revealing what are potentially trade secrets. It's allowed without it being labeled "smoke and mirrors". But, there IS enough public information to at least know that it's a hell of a lot more valuable than a bunch of unofficial IRs someone else may have taken. Like I said, if that does the trick for you then go ahead and use that then. However, THIS product openly shows that there's both convolution and modeling technology used together AND that there's an obvious collaboration with the studio itself and this is where I can at least say, because I've been part of that, it was painstaking work to get this right. No one else has done it to this extent because if they did then this product wouldn't exist. It's exclusive with the studio and as I mentioned before I'm personally thrilled it's finally almost here. I'm already using it. I know its value and can only try to help convey it from my point of view.

[digitalboytn]

When I say that Peter is an "online salesman", I don't mean that in a derogatory way,but he is representing the company and pushing their agenda,so that makes him a sales person for the products that he is promoting...

This is a fact...

Perhaps there is another term for his role here,but it would merely be a case of semantics

[planetearth]

Thanks for your posts and explanation, @Squids, but some people are going to hate on IKMM--and/or Peter--no matter what Peter initially posts here. He could release (as in "post for free") the cure for cancer and some people will still find fault with IKMM and Peter.

All of this could have been handled so much better on both sides, but I don't envy Peter his job.

"KVRAudio Forums: Where the respectful exchange of ideas goes to die."

Steve

[fese]

"Any internet forum: Where the respectful exchange of ideas goes to die."

There, I fixed that for you

I really do not get why some people get so wound up about prices of products that they feel the need to go on a campaign... why not use all that energy to make some music? You don’t have to use any IK product for it if you don’t want to
But you should not forget that behind any company there are people who (usually) work hard to keep the company going and to pay the salaries of their employees. It is their right to set the price for the product they’re selling, regardless of what some forum know-it-alls say (who most likely don’t know shit about running a company). The market will tell them whether they got it right...

[planetearth]

"Any internet forum: Where the respectful exchange of ideas goes to die."

There, I fixed that for you

Fair enough.

I really do not get why some people get so wound up about prices of products that they feel the need to go on a campaign... why not use all that energy to make some music? You don’t have to use any IK product for it if you don’t want to
But you should not forget that behind any company there are people who (usually) work hard to keep the company going and to pay the salaries of their employees. It is their right to set the price for the product they’re selling, regardless of what some forum know-it-alls say (who most likely don’t know shit about running a company). The market will tell them whether they got it right...

Ditto.

Steve

[Squids]

When I say that Peter is an "online salesman", I don't mean that in a derogatory way,but he is representing the company and pushing their agenda,so that makes him a sales person for the products that he is promoting...

This is a fact...

Perhaps there is another term for his role here,but it would merely be a case of semantics

Yes, of course it's a fact that he's here representing a company. That's his job. But, he's not actually in sales. He is here to help clarify information about IK products and would of course have a natural agenda of telling you the positive things about them.

[Squids]

"Any internet forum: Where the respectful exchange of ideas goes to die."

There, I fixed that for you

I really do not get why some people get so wound up about prices of products that they feel the need to go on a campaign... why not use all that energy to make some music? You don’t have to use any IK product for it if you don’t want to
But you should not forget that behind any company there are people who (usually) work hard to keep the company going and to pay the salaries of their employees. It is their right to set the price for the product they’re selling, regardless of what some forum know-it-alls say (who most likely don’t know shit about running a company). The market will tell them whether they got it right...

Great points guys. Yes, it's easy for anyone to point to a Ferrari and say "but it's just an engine and four wheels with a chassis..." and think they know what it should cost based on their limited knowledge of the company, the craftsmanship of how it's made, the actual costs and whatever else goes into it. But, what we do know is that Ferrari wouldn't still be around if people didn't buy them at that cost.

Now, even though the Ferrari factory happens to literally be just down the street from IK Headquarters in Italy (I've been there and it's awesome!), I'm not saying that IK has outrageously high prices relative to other plug-ins manufacturers. It's more in the middle price-range, at least from the pro plug-ins I and other engineers I know use. This is excluding crazy sales and group buys that companies including IK have from time to time (but usually that's not on a brand new product... you have to wait for that and you never know).

But, anyway, a lot does go into the pricing that you wouldn't know. As I said, not every aspect of a product is public knowledge... and making assumptions to fill in the gaps of what you don't know can really be a distraction to others from an otherwise interesting and informative discussion about a product. I'm sure Peter's job must be tough when, as you said, people lay into him or IK and he's gotta shadowbox his way out of it. As for me, I'm in a different position. This isn't my job. I'm the CEO of my own company, Sonic Reality. I'm a partner with IK and I helped build the US company going back to the early days of plug-ins and KVR! I think I might have even been the one who connected Peter with IK all those years back because he's a great guy. He looks a bit like Steve Buschemi so I used to say to him "Donny you're out of your element" all the time (from The Big Lebowski). Anyway, while I've been away from KVR for awhile (mostly to spend my extra time making music instead of talking about it), when I'm here I just say it like it is and I don't take any crap. I DO know what's behind the making of these products and I'm also able to be objective about their value as well because I also buy plug-ins and gear for my studio (and don't only use IK products exclusively just because I get them for free). I know what I would hypothetically buy from IK. I really WOULD get everything, the Total Studio 2 MAX + individual products that came out after that and I can tell you why... as in what I would use it for. In fact, I'll go ahead and do a brief explanation now! ("uh oh... someone has unleashed the monster!" haha) check next mega post for details!

[Squids]

Here's an overview of why I personally use pretty much ALL of the IK software products, despite the fact that I do buy software products from other companies:

SampleTank 4 - why do I want this? First of all, this is what drew me to IK to begin with because as a sound developer who made sounds for the popular workstations (Roland, Yamaha, Alesis used my sounds back in the day), I wanted that in software and IK was the first one to really pull it off! Samples with GOOD effects built-in. Anyway, it's evolved to the point where ST4 has the kind of effects I always wanted built-in (thanks to the fact that IK models outboard gear and guitar gear I like)... and then ST finally caught up with other sampler features like streaming and round robin etc. It was always a good Swiss Army knife workhorse rompler. But, now it's more powerful (and I'm about to finally release new libraries for it that include all of the archives I've collected over the years including many cool rare instruments...). I won't mention the ST-based products but they're all useful from Miroslav Philharmonik (if you ever want me to tell you more about that let me know as I helped make that happen), Syntronik (which, believe it or not, is not my baby but it's something I wanted for a long time) and more.

AmpliTube 4 - Speaking of Swiss Army knife workhorses, I use AT all the time. I try to record DI guitar tracks in every production I do so I can run it through AmpliTube which is the only software I personally need for guitar processing. If I was purchasing it I would have it maxed out for all options. I mean, I'm a huge Brian May fan so without a doubt I'd get that pack but even though I was never familiar with Dimebag and not a huge Slash fan, the models of their gear could come in handy. In fact, I even have a hardware Slash edition Marshall head because it was recommended to me for its sound and features by John Wesley, the live guitarist of the band Porcupine Tree who I work with often. So, it's nice to have that in software as well... and the Leslie (for sure!!!!) and many other stomp boxes and amps. I collect vintage stomp boxes so when a single pedal like a Univibe costs $2,000 it's easy to see the value in a massive collection in software and in this area I personally do find AmpliTube to be the best one and the only one I need. So, unlike other outboard gear models from different manufacturers, I don't actually bother with the software flavors of guitar amp and fx sims from other companies (and I've tried others but don't really see the point... even though I'm open to it). I wouldn't mind something like the Kemper in hardware but then we're back to the $2,000+ range again... and for that money I also like my real 60's Vox AC30 with top boost so...

Lurssen Mastering Console - I'll be brief. I helped make this happen because I use that mastering house and half of the appeal to me was running my songs through that analog mastering chain. That alone was the "glue" needed and then their expertise, which to an extent comes with the plug-in if you watch the videos to know how to use the presets, is a handy fast and inexpensive tool for mastering. I use it often and I've personally saved thousands of dollars by mastering myself because of it.

MODO BASS AND MODO DRUM - I've made tons of sample libraries over the years and have sampled famous drummers and bass players with some of the best gear. I still do it and love samples. But, the possibilities of modeled bass and modeled drums that these two products offer I find irresistible. It's too much fun and too useful being able to change aspects of the instrument at any time... the strings or the drum heads or shell size etc... to me, when I need a specific sound such as Neil Peart's drum kit or a Bonham kit, I'll go for my own samples. But, when I want to just pull up a drum kit quick and a bass quick and tweak it to the song I use these two plug-ins, especially if I'm doing a mock up track for a drummer and bassist to replace... and sometimes find they don't have to or I can blend the two together.

T-RackS 5 - I love it and I've been using TR since the very first one, which not many people realize was one of, if not THE first, audio gear modeling in software before there even were VST plug-ins. That yellow stand alone rack of gear sounded pretty darn good from the beginning and it's only gotten better and better through the years with all the experience IK has in modeling. But, I have a certain philosophy when it comes to modeled outboard gear and that is that I like to have lots of options and a variety of approaches available to me when I mix. I pick up tips from engineers I know or admire. I work with Tom Lord-Alge a lot and he's a great mentor. He got me into Brainworx plug-ins (which btw generally cost several times more than IK TR singles like Sunset Sound Studio Reverb) and I use a bunch of their stuff. I also have a lot of Waves and even some UAD (although my issue with UA stuff is that I always have to have their interface or an Octo with me to use it and I don't always have that around so I actually prefer not to use their stuff unless I print it because I don't want to be on a laptop somewhere and not be able to load a session). I have those Oaksound plug-ins because they're different and handy and I absolutely love Fab Filter... the list goes on. Each of these companies has something cool and useful to me. I also use the plug-ins that come with Avid Pro Tools as well. But, T-RackS is my staple piece. I use the models of SSL, Neve, API, Pultec (and I own hardware versions of these) and others as well as the new Tape Machines collection (which many engineers feel is one of the best saturation plug-ins around), the Leslie (one of the best Leslie sims around... and I own a real one) and now Sunset Sound Studio Reverb (even though I do have and use Altiverb... I still find Sunset Sound Studio Reverb to be more useful for that specific sound which I really like).

So, that's an idea why I'm a true fan of the products from IK, whether I had something to do with them existing or not. I genuinely would buy them and I can see their value. That's not to say that I agree with every feature or every price. But, overall, I like partnering up with a company who makes products I would buy and I really do use in every production I do. I can be objective and real about it. No one pays me to be here or anywhere. I talk about products (and demo products) because I want to share a point of view that is hopefully helpful to other music makers. I like to share what I think is great about a product. I'm about to do that for Sunset Sound (wait until you see what I've cooked up) and also the new Z-Tone DI which is another product I suggested that got the green light and I'm so thrilled to show WHY I requested it and what exactly that can be used for... much more than what we typically think a DI is for.

As you can see, I WILL confidently share my thoughts on these things regardless what any know-it-all naysayers want to spew about IK. I'm not a salesman either and I don't get a commission (wish I did!!! haha). I'm not even some guy behind a desk. I'm a musician, engineer and producer like you who actually uses this stuff. There's that side and then my knowledge as a developer that I can share to those of you who can handle a SQUIDS MEGA POST™ (and if not they have this great feature on KVR called "ignore". ). I'm here for positive messages to reach those who can benefit from it.