[Intro pricing extended] Available now: T-RackS Sunset Sound Studio Reverb

[planetearth]

"Any internet forum: Where the respectful exchange of ideas goes to die."

There, I fixed that for you

I really do not get why some people get so wound up about prices of products that they feel the need to go on a campaign... why not use all that energy to make some music? You don’t have to use any IK product for it if you don’t want to
But you should not forget that behind any company there are people who (usually) work hard to keep the company going and to pay the salaries of their employees. It is their right to set the price for the product they’re selling, regardless of what some forum know-it-alls say (who most likely don’t know shit about running a company). The market will tell them whether they got it right...

Great points guys. Yes, it's easy for anyone to point to a Ferrari and say "but it's just an engine and four wheels with a chassis..." and think they know what it should cost based on their limited knowledge of the company, the craftsmanship of how it's made, the actual costs and whatever else goes into it. But, what we do know is that Ferrari wouldn't still be around if people didn't buy them at that cost.

Now, even though the Ferrari factory happens to literally be just down the street from IK Headquarters in Italy (I've been there and it's awesome!), I'm not saying that IK has outrageously high prices relative to other plug-ins manufacturers. It's more in the middle price-range, at least from the pro plug-ins I and other engineers I know use. This is excluding crazy sales and group buys that companies including IK have from time to time (but usually that's not on a brand new product... you have to wait for that and you never know).

But, anyway, a lot does go into the pricing that you wouldn't know. As I said, not every aspect of a product is public knowledge... and making assumptions to fill in the gaps of what you don't know can really be a distraction to others from an otherwise interesting and informative discussion about a product. I'm sure Peter's job must be tough when, as you said, people lay into him or IK and he's gotta shadowbox his way out of it. As for me, I'm in a different position. This isn't my job. I'm the CEO of my own company, Sonic Reality. I'm a partner with IK and I helped build the US company going back to the early days of plug-ins and KVR!

[Snip]

I'm with you, @Squids, and I know many others are, too. I'm not an IKMM fanboy, but I have quite a few of their plug-ins, and many of your Expansion packs, which I've used in dozens of projects. I just wish some people here could understand that it's fine if they want to disagree and make their point once or twice (if they feel they weren't understood the first time), but that there are ways of disagreeing without being disagreeable. And ugly.

If the plug-ins (or Expansion packs!) help you make music, great. If they don't, that's fine too. Make your point one way or the other and move on. No one's forcing you to buy them or even deal with a company you don't like. Just get over it already.

Steve

[billybong]

Yeah, own a few IK products myself, avoid others.

Vitriol against a product you don't like is probably an overreaction.

[VariKusBrainZ]

The reason for the high price is they had to factor in the amount of time Peter would spend online promoting and defending the product.

[Squids]

The reason for the high price is they had to factor in the amount of time Peter would spend online promoting and defending the product.

Haha. Yes if you guys would just give him a break you'd get much better deals!

In all seriousness, though, a lot of things factor into the price of a product including the cost to develop it, distribute it and market it. But, as someone pointed out earlier, it does have to sell so the real judge of whether the price is fair or not (or at least acceptable) is in the sales of the product.

By the way, I meant to say this. In terms of value perception, at $150 you get ALL of the reverbs of the studio. Some plug-in companies (including IK with CSR) have separate plug-ins for a Plate vs. Room or other. This could have been 4 separate plug-ins - a Plate, Echo Chamber, Room and Spring reverb. I think the Abbey Road one (which of course I bought) is that way. Some other plug-ins I have are just a Spring or just a Plate etc. If those were each MSRP $100 that would be $400. When you look at it that way $150 isn't so bad.

But... I know there are many ways to look at it and justify one way or the other. Like if someone wanted to go a cheaper route and just use some random IRs they could find with a budget convolution verb. Sure. You can if you want. Do it! Haha. Meanwhile, someone who realllllly appreciates a studio like Sunset Sound can't resist just getting the official full product and you might as well get it at the introductory price. $150 to me is a great deal to have the sound of this studio to use in your music as much as you want.

[Obsolete236871]

$150 to me is a great deal to have the sound of this studio to use in your music as much as you want.

I'm not going to escalate the discussion again, I promise .

I have to respectfully disagree on that quoted notion though. What you will get is a static impulse response taken in that studio, you won't get the "sound of this studio" though.

A static impulse response is just a snapshot of one signal in that acoustic environment at one specific moment, that lacks all the acoustic effects that appear over time when soundwaves interact physically with their acoustic environment. Or in other words: you will only capture one static representation of the room's acoustic from one fixed recording position. I liken to compare this to the "machine gun effect" in drum samples, where you try to make a snare roll, but due to repeating the exact same sound, our brain recognizes that something ain't right and that this is not a real snare roll happening right there. In the same vein we can catch that the sound is not really played in a real room, when the acoustic reflections remain static over time. It's like trying to create a motion picture by repeating the very same sequence of a few pictures repeatedly. It might work for the very few seconds where the sequence is novel and plays for the first time, but after some repetitions we realize that this is just becoming redundant.

Still, IRs can be a pretty good approximation of the room sound and I really enjoy convolution technology personally (have a great collection of "random IRs", as you call them, that were taken by very generous guys, who decided to share them freely with the public, despite the effort that went into capturing them). But typically I would use techniques inside the DAW to make the reverb signal more "lively" or moving, so that it won't become redundant.

Best thing to test the effects of IRs is not to play one sound at a time through them, but a longer musical sequence. Then see whether it sounds alive or just good, but static. There is not doubt it sounds good, if a good acoustic environment has been captured with best practice techniques. But does it sound alive over the cause of time?

But, I guess there's one easy way to find out. When it gets release just download the demo and try it out and see if you gotta have it! Use your EARS.

Since IK Multimedia requires interested users to download a 1.5 gb package just to install one plugin (even for their tiniest 20 mb T-Racks module), I will have to decline. I'm not bothering myself with IKM's inefficient and literally energy consuming modus of distributing their plugins, which doesn't take user interests into consideration. Even if you would give me this for free, I would have to decline, as I have done previously, when IKM offered some of their compressor models (eg mag ware). But thanks anyway!

[Squids]

We know that already Izak! I appreciate the more civil tone this time but you made your point already. And, if you're saying that you can't even bring yourself to download the authorization manager app (which to anyone reading this is no big deal. It's even the first time I've seen anyone complain about it tbh) or you wouldn't even want it for free then, really, what ARE you doing in a thread about an IK product???? Here to deter people or enjoying the sport of bashing a company and their products? Hard to believe even that's worth anyone's time. Maybe it's time to move along to another thread about something you would actually consider using? Hope so because man this is getting tiresome.

Once again, I'll say what I can say about the product and the process. It is more than just some IR. Multiple IR per room have been captured with all sorts of things done under the hood to get it as close to the sound of what it would be like if you say went into the studio specifically get the ambiences they offer. I just did that for some songs myself so I can and will demonstrate this. However, not for YOU Izak because you're so picky you can't handle downloading the authorization manager app and wouldn't even want this plug-in for free. You're one in a million (because there are actually millions of IK users btw). There's no point in even trying to convince you because you're not even reasonable IMO. I've been doing this for a long time and it's very rare that I see someone who is that resistant yet somehow interested in discussing it. I can't take that seriously. So, when I speak/type here it's really not to YOU but to anyone reading what you've wrote (no need to repeat it as it's there over and over enough already you can stop now). If they worry it's the same as your random IRs from generous people, I'm here to clarify that it is by far not just that. Those generous people did not work with the studio back and forth for months and use additional modeling and techniques to recreate the sound of the studio's ambience accurately. I know this for a fact because this is an exclusive product done WITH the studio and I've been there for many of the sessions myself. Sorry I can't reveal ALL the details of how but I don't need to. Quite simply, the majority of people who don't have some strange aversion to the authorization manager and DO happen to appreciate a week or more to try the product can listen for themselves! Plus my demos will also offer some convincing AUDIO (instead of just reading theories). It takes time but I'll have that ready soon.

One last thing. The plug-in offers a characteristic sound of the studio, particularly what it would sound like in terms of the ambience. But, nothing can offer the full sound of a studio except being there. That's because you can mic up instruments in any part of any room and run it through any of the gear they would have on those albums and all of that can't be put into a plug-in. Some things you actually have to go there! If you want to say record your own drums and even have it sound nearly as good as it would if you recorded in this studio (let alone sounding characteristically like it) you would have to still have access to nice sounding acoustic space and excellent vintage mics run through an API or Neve (or even Sunset Sounds' 500 series mic pre which is a modified API... I have one! Love it. Nice optional flavor... but I don't have 10-20 of them to record drums with. Wish I did!). Even if you wanted to record vocals and have closer to the sound you'd get if you recorded in the Jim Morrison ISO booth at Sunset Sound, you'd still need to start off by recording yourself through say a U47 which I believe is what they used (I have one of those too. Used to belong to my former band mate Kevin Gilbert. Best vocal mic ever!). If you run that through the ISO in the Sunset Sound Studio Reverb that is about as close as one is going to get without being there and in context of music I'm sure it would work.

In any case, my point is that you still need to start out with quality recordings and those recordings won't sound like that studio unless you have a similar space and microphone/console. That's reality and kind of a given to anyone who understands this stuff. No one is trying to make anyone think that this replaces going into a studio like that completely! Haha. If only!!! But, the focus is on the ambiences of the studio and it does bring you that sound as accurately as could be done with the combination of convolution and modeling and a lot of listening and testing and tweaking until it's just right. Again, I'm not saying this TO YOU, Izak, because no matter what I say you don't really seem to care. Based on your comments I doubt you'll ever say something like "Ohh I was mistaken. Maybe I should give this a chance"... and you seem to think those random IRs will do the same thing. They won't but you can go think that while everyone else that's truly interested gives it a chance to see if it's a cool thing for them to have... or if they feel the need to go the low budget route (just like any other piece of gear or software... there are always cheaper options but they're usually not as good).

I would go as far as saying this. If having the chambers, plates, spring or room sounds of a great studio like this is something you'd love to do for even one song or album AT the studio then I can't imagine you not wanting this plug-in. If you've never recorded in a studio like this and you don't even know yet how great live chambers and real plates and rooms can sound, then by all means use your ears and try it when it comes out.

As for me, after using the plug-in AND recording a bunch at the studio hearing how rich and open it sounds, this has become my new favorite plug-in for reverb. It just fits a lot of my music which is classic rock/progressive rock and sometimes acoustic. I'm producing an alt rock album for an artist this year where this ambience is a huge part of the sound of the whole album... so much so that I'd even consider it to be like an instrument. I loved the whole idea of this being put into a plug-in in theory before but after finally having the plug-in and the time to listen to ALL of the chambers, plates and rooms in the actual studio in a thorough way I completely get it now on a whole other level. That's one of the reasons so many major artists recorded there for the past 60 years. What a vibe! This is a distinct audible part of that vibe.

[cprompt]

Damn, all this talk has really made me want this plugin! Like I said earlier, it probably sounds amazing but I'll have to wait for a sale one day in the future.

[Squids]

Damn, all this talk has really made me want this plugin! Like I said earlier, it probably sounds amazing but I'll have to wait for a sale one day in the future.

Cool! Just keep in mind, though, that $150 is the sale price. Regular price is $249. But, it's a suite of multiple reverb types. Just the Abbey Road Plates as a plug-in are normally $249 and just the Abbey Road Chambers are $199. This has plates and chambers and rooms and a spring for $150. vs. just Plates and Chambers from Waves for the regular price of $449 (granted they do some "drop the pants sales" on their plug-ins but you can't expect every product from every company to be offered at such a low sale price). If you can really wait then who knows? If it's part of a group buy or something down the road. I have no idea. But, if you really want this one then it just might be the best price on it for awhile. I actually don't know a lot about jam points if they can be used (not my area) but if so then maybe there's a way to save there too.

[Obsolete236871]

Thanks Squids,

but I would highly appreciate it if you could "tone it down" a bit, since the passive-aggressive character that we know so well from your car-salesmen colleague Peter, is already manifesting again in your reply.

You try to make it look as if I'm the only one who is concerned with your inefficient way of handling authorization and installation of "your" (IKMs) products. Let me assure you that this is not the case and you are clearly out of touch with the user base if you believe that. You are literally contributing to the waste of energy and ressources by forcing people to download 1.5 gig installation apps for 20 mb T-Racks modules. You do understand that waste of bandwith equals waste of limited natural ressources or is that a too complex and abstract concept to grasp?

Here are some user quotes, who like me declined your "free offers", due to your inferior installation procedure:

When you were giving out your T-Racks Quad Compressor for free, people had this to say:

I just can’t imagine how much money they lose every month because of their f***ed up website and their licensing “routine”.

Anyone else literally unable to figure out how to download and actually authorize this? Cause I have like 4 things installed on my computer now and it STILL is telling my my plugin is not authorized.

Kind of bloating imo also kind of sucks you need to install the whole shop thing to us this one. #looks pretty fine actually. FREE BLOATWARE though.

When you were giving out IK Multimedia Black 76 Limiting Amplifier for "free" recently...

1,6Go to download???!!! Maybe I had a “mirage” ?

Nope. You can’t leave the dll you want. You also need another file that is over 1GB on your drive where the graphics for the plugins are. Deleting. I’ll stick with Fetish 2 from Analog Obsession, which is 6,4 MB.

Just the Next account-ware, disgusting,
collecting data for third parties, full installer,
probably will load all the demo software …

I started downloading this plugin and then noticed the size of the download, upon which I immediately interrupted it and deleted my IK account. Such irresponsible business practice is absolutely unacceptable.

Now my email account is being buried with their “IK Multimedia – Delete Account Verified” messages – around 1700 copies so far.

As if I had any doubts.

FYI: Before you go to the page, realize you will need to provide all your personal info (street address and phone number too). I didn’t get far enough to find out what happens if you uncheck the box that says they can use all that info for marketing purposes.

You can find many more such notions being expressed by users online, on blogs, forums, social media, Youtube and so on.

So please get in touch with reality again and tone down the highly manipulative and rather obvious attempt of framing me as some kind of outlier, when it only takes a few seconds of using your favourite web search engine (or just read some of the comments in this thread) to find an endless number of complaints about your installation and authorization procedure, not to mention the inferior quality of "modelling" on some of your T-Racks modules.

If you decide to continue this conversation in such a disrespectful and deragatory manner, I will feel obliged to let more people know of your attempt to sell TWELVE STATIC IMPULSE RESPONSES for 150 €! I'm already in e-mail contact with Snake Oil Guy on Youtube and he is interested in the story. If you want me to get in touch with more Youtubers and influencers, continue the path you and Peter have chosen. Alternatively, try to find your way back to the righteous path of respect and honesty!

EDIT: discussion is already saved to Wayback Machine for documentary purposes, in case anyone wants to undermine First Amendment rights / Free Speech!

[jens]

Now you start to get really obnoxious. I agree with Squids that you deserve a ban.

[Obsolete236871]

@jens For quoting user impressions about IKM's autorization procedure? Are you trying to flatter Squids / Peter hoping to receive a free license in return?

[imrae]

Great points guys. Yes, it's easy for anyone to point to a Ferrari and say "but it's just an engine and four wheels with a chassis..." and think they know what it should cost based on their limited knowledge of the company, the craftsmanship of how it's made, the actual costs and whatever else goes into it.

If we're going with this analogy, then the current situation is that a new Ferarri has been announced with identical engine specifications to a standard Renault platform. When people ask if they would essentially be paying for a fancy body kit, Ferrari insist that their car is much better, the details are a secret, and then bang on for ages about their rich history, famous owners and racing success. And how dare people ask questions before booking a test drive?

But, what we do know is that Ferrari wouldn't still be around if people didn't buy them at that cost.

Wasn't Lamborghini founded because Ferrari were bad at listening to customer feedback?

[vurt]

@jens For quoting user impressions about IKM's autorization procedure? Are you trying to flatter Squids / Peter hoping to receive a free license in return?

the threatening to contact people if they dont do what you want. either theres a story for the youtubers or there isnt, not just because you dont get your way.

and no, dont use ikm stuff. dont want to.
but id expect them not to have to deal with threats.

[Obsolete236871]

@vurt Fair enough. Wasn't meant to be a threat, even if you interpret it as such though. My sense of justice just doesn't allow me to just accept and ignore their obvious manipulation attempt, especially the framing against my person that was implicitly and explicitly contained in the last reply by Squids. He claimed that he has never heard of people complaining about their authorization / installation procedure, hence I gave examples of publicly available complaints. And yes, I think the lengths that some companies go to sell rather average and technologically generic products as some kind of new, phenomenal thing, is something that should be discussed in the audio community, including audio tech related Youtube influencers. Great stuff to examine the mechanisms of psychological and rhetoric manipulation in commerce.

[VariKusBrainZ]

The reason for the high price is they had to factor in the amount of time Peter would spend online promoting and defending the product.

Haha. Yes if you guys would just give him a break you'd get much better deals!

In all seriousness, though, a lot of things factor into the price of a product including the cost to develop it, distribute it and market it.

I was jesting, but I feel you know that

My real thought was you must be paying through the nose for the licensing deal with Sunny Delight Studios, hence the high price.

Its not the sort of product Im interested either way, even if it was $29.