[Intro pricing extended] Available now: T-RackS Sunset Sound Studio Reverb

[rj0]

I tend to frown on unsupported, and premature hype, for an upcoming product, regardless of the company, especially if the product seems overpriced.

If the product is going to be hyped, get it out quickly after announcement, and let the users test it, and come to their own conclusions. Putting out high prices and premature hype just invites negative responses.

I feel badly for company reps here. They don't originate the hype (the marketing/sales department does), but their job (and yes, they really are remotely part of the marketing/support team) is to respond to the feedback. I guess the best they can reasonably do is acknowledge user's concerns, and promise to feed it back to those who originate the message (get some plausible answers, or maybe tone the hype down a little?). It's important that they don't take the feedback personally (and get defensive for the company). The same holds true for partner companies/reps. That just makes matters worse, and things go downhill from there.

[DarkStar]

... (And that concludes this late night's return of the SQUIDS MEGA POST!!!! For those who remember haha).

"Those were the days, my friend. We thought they'd never end."

[Squids]

I thought it was defunct, but tried not to rub your face in it. So much for manners, eh?? Didn't you're now defunct sound company have close business dealings with IK when it was around?? I'd say that prevents you from having an even remotely non-biased opinion of IK.

That said, just to be perfectly clear (as I have been), I NEVER SAID I HAVE A NON-BAISED OPINION ABOUT IK. My brother runs the US office and I have been a partner with IK for decades. But, I'm not a rep or an employee sent here to do anything. That's not my job. It IS Peter's job. I'm here now because I saw this thread and I was part of the making of this product and have something useful to offer. Plus I'll participate more now that I'm back into it... however, I'd rather spend my time answering serious people who are friendly and want to know things that I CAN answer from my perspective. Ok? (I don't care if it's ok that was rhetorical). Next!

PS. I'll likely ignore trolling posts out of respect to my own time and anyone reading. We don't need that filler. There's some good discussion to be had here and info to be shared.

You're wrong. Anyone with ties to the company has zero objectivity and has even less to contribute to this discussion than the opinions that you seek to diminish by labeling them as trolls. Whatever gets you through the night...

Developers and affiliates to companies are welcome here and always have been. It's not true that someone with ties to the company has ZERO objectivity but it is a good idea to take whatever they say with a grain of salt knowing they likely do have their biases. When it's a product you can actually try out yourself for free there's really no harm in listening to people who actually have experience making these kinds of products as you can always still judge for yourself. But, for sure if you happen to have a problem with it then maybe KVR just isn't the place for you. There are more official company forums on KVR than any other site focused on music software. My company, Sonic Reality, was one of the first ones.

Edited: For niceness

[Squids]

... (And that concludes this late night's return of the SQUIDS MEGA POST!!!! For those who remember haha).

"Those were the days, my friend. We thought they'd never end."

Hey man!!!! So nice to see you guys on here again. It's been so long! haha

[Squids]

I tend to frown on unsupported, and premature hype, for an upcoming product, regardless of the company, especially if the product seems overpriced.

If the product is going to be hyped, get it out quickly after announcement, and let the users test it, and come to their own conclusions. Putting out high prices and premature hype just invites negative responses.

I feel badly for company reps here. They don't originate the hype (the marketing/sales department does), but their job (and yes, they really are remotely part of the marketing/support team) is to respond to the feedback. I guess the best they can reasonably do is acknowledge user's concerns, and promise to feed it back to those who originate the message (get some plausible answers, or maybe tone the hype down a little?). It's important that they don't take the feedback personally (and get defensive for the company). The same holds true for partner companies/reps. That just makes matters worse, and things go downhill from there.

In my case, I'm just personally hyped about it as this one's my baby. I didn't make it but I put it together to make it happen. Abbey Road Plates (just the plates) regular non-sale price is $249. The Chambers another $199. So, Sunset Sound Studio Reverb with both Plates and Chambers AND the live rooms AND the iso booths AND the spring reverb for reg price $249 with an intro price of $150 is arguably NOT "over-priced" as some people are saying, relative to comparable products made officially with legendary studios. It DOES cost a LOT more to make a full featured product in cooperation with the studio than someone sneaking into the studio and grabbing some random IRs willy nilly without cooperation and endorsement of the studio. That's why it's not free or cheap. But, it offers what it offers and nothing else does by direct comparison so... as for you guys, you will very soon be able to try it out for yourself and see if it lives up to the hype or not. I'm on a mission to prove it in my demos which I've offered to do... and I actually don't make any money on this product (I do make money on my sample libraries when they're sold but not this). The reason I'm putting my effort into doing it is because it's FUN and I love and appreciate any chance to work with this studio and these incredible engineers and I also believe in this product and want to help others see what I see in it in terms of what it can do for your music. So, I contributed songs I've written or produced to be processed and I'll break it down so you can hear instead of read and decide for yourselves!

By the way, in terms of speed, this product was just announced a few weeks ago at NAMM and I believe it's coming out in the next week or two. That's pretty darn fast from the hype to you deciding yourself. It's not waiting months and months so... with some patience any of you who are on the fence will be able to know yourselves soon enough. I don't expect anyone to listen to my excited words or even Peter's communication of what the company is saying from the marketing side of things and just "auto-buy" without going through whatever process they're comfortable with to determine if it's something they can use or not. I certainly hope each of you can make up your own minds about it and know what you like when you hear it! But, also, pick up a thing or two from reading what's being said because it's still information about the product, regardless whether it sounds like marketing or sales talk. So what? Is it informative? Does it tell you something that interests you? Then who cares? But, if not then one can also skip those posts and read others or just skip ALL the talk and just download it when it's ready and use it! Make music. That's what it's all about anyway.

[Squids]

There should be no differentiation between companies or individuals on KVR,so why should the mods step in and help out here when this has been an interesting debate,with both sides bringing their agendas to the fore...

Debate's fine. Abusive behavior isn't. When someone reports a post to the mods, we have to decide which side of that line we think that post is on (often a single post, or series of posts, straddle the line) while trying to be fair to everyone involved. It's a judgement call. I think all KVR mods want to promote free exchange of ideas, but discourage that exchange from going nuclear.

That's all I have to say here. Be good to each other, 'kay?

this is what Meffy said and I agree, free exchange of idea does not include banning someone because they dont like a company or a product...that could appear to be showing favor to the companies.

I agree it's fine not to like a company or to be critical. But, making false claims, incorrect assumptions, potentially damaging misinformation and repeating it over and over etc. is another story. If I was a mod here I wouldn't allow it. But, of course, that's up to you guys. I thought what Meffy said made a lot of sense. Let's try that!

[Symphony Sid]

I thought it was defunct, but tried not to rub your face in it. So much for manners, eh?? Didn't you're now defunct sound company have close business dealings with IK when it was around?? I'd say that prevents you from having an even remotely non-biased opinion of IK.

That said, just to be perfectly clear (as I have been), I NEVER SAID I HAVE A NON-BAISED OPINION ABOUT IK. My brother runs the US office and I have been a partner with IK for decades. But, I'm not a rep or an employee sent here to do anything. That's not my job. It IS Peter's job. I'm here now because I saw this thread and I was part of the making of this product and have something useful to offer. Plus I'll participate more now that I'm back into it... however, I'd rather spend my time answering serious people who are friendly and want to know things that I CAN answer from my perspective. Ok? (I don't care if it's ok that was rhetorical). Next!

PS. I'll likely ignore trolling posts out of respect to my own time and anyone reading. We don't need that filler. There's some good discussion to be had here and info to be shared.

You're wrong. Anyone with ties to the company has zero objectivity and has even less to contribute to this discussion than the opinions that you seek to diminish by labeling them as trolls. Whatever gets you through the night...

If it acts like a troll it is a troll. But, it is you who is wrong and I know this because I've been on KVR probably since before you were born. Developers and affiliates to companies are welcome here and always have been. It's not true that someone with ties to the company has ZERO objectivity but it is a good idea to take whatever they say with a grain of salt knowing they likely do have their biases. When it's a product you can actually try out yourself for free there's really no harm in listening to people who actually have experience making these kinds of products as you can always still judge for yourself. But, for sure if you happen to have a problem with it then maybe KVR just isn't the place for you. There are more official company forums on KVR than any other site focused on music software. My company, Sonic Reality, was one of the first ones. Your rude comments and assumptions are annoying and yeah actually you probably should be banned because what good does that offer the community? But, lucky for you that's not up to me.

Anyway, unless you have something interesting to say I'm going to ignore you so I can carry on discussion with people I can take seriously. Bye!

Since we're waxing poetic, if it acts like a shill, it is a shill.

[VitaminD]

I thought it was defunct, but tried not to rub your face in it. So much for manners, eh?? Didn't you're now defunct sound company have close business dealings with IK when it was around?? I'd say that prevents you from having an even remotely non-biased opinion of IK.

That said, just to be perfectly clear (as I have been), I NEVER SAID I HAVE A NON-BAISED OPINION ABOUT IK. My brother runs the US office and I have been a partner with IK for decades. But, I'm not a rep or an employee sent here to do anything. That's not my job. It IS Peter's job. I'm here now because I saw this thread and I was part of the making of this product and have something useful to offer. Plus I'll participate more now that I'm back into it... however, I'd rather spend my time answering serious people who are friendly and want to know things that I CAN answer from my perspective. Ok? (I don't care if it's ok that was rhetorical). Next!

PS. I'll likely ignore trolling posts out of respect to my own time and anyone reading. We don't need that filler. There's some good discussion to be had here and info to be shared.

You're wrong. Anyone with ties to the company has zero objectivity and has even less to contribute to this discussion than the opinions that you seek to diminish by labeling them as trolls. Whatever gets you through the night...

If it acts like a troll it is a troll. But, it is you who is wrong and I know this because I've been on KVR probably since before you were born. Developers and affiliates to companies are welcome here and always have been. It's not true that someone with ties to the company has ZERO objectivity but it is a good idea to take whatever they say with a grain of salt knowing they likely do have their biases. When it's a product you can actually try out yourself for free there's really no harm in listening to people who actually have experience making these kinds of products as you can always still judge for yourself. But, for sure if you happen to have a problem with it then maybe KVR just isn't the place for you. There are more official company forums on KVR than any other site focused on music software. My company, Sonic Reality, was one of the first ones. Your rude comments and assumptions are annoying and yeah actually you probably should be banned because what good does that offer the community? But, lucky for you that's not up to me.

Anyway, unless you have something interesting to say I'm going to ignore you so I can carry on discussion with people I can take seriously. Bye!

I've been watching this thread from the beginning. And I have seen a lot of harsh and rather ugly things said. But you're acting like the thing you're against if you think others should be banned for rude comments when you, in this very thread have said rather rude things.

Let us please remember the 2nd rule of the forum:

Members should post in a way that is respectful of other users. Flaming or abusing users in any way will not be tolerated and will result in your post being edited / deleted, and you may be issued with a warning and / or a ban.

Frankly I think this thread needs to die because nothing good has come of it and IKM and your own responses haven't been too professional either. It isn't a good look for anyone, them or you and the companies you represent.

And I doubt anything good will come of antagonizing the antagonists. It just looks petty on both sides.

[Saukar30]

Im just waiting for the demo

[Hink]

I thought it was defunct, but tried not to rub your face in it. So much for manners, eh?? Didn't you're now defunct sound company have close business dealings with IK when it was around?? I'd say that prevents you from having an even remotely non-biased opinion of IK.

That said, just to be perfectly clear (as I have been), I NEVER SAID I HAVE A NON-BAISED OPINION ABOUT IK. My brother runs the US office and I have been a partner with IK for decades. But, I'm not a rep or an employee sent here to do anything. That's not my job. It IS Peter's job. I'm here now because I saw this thread and I was part of the making of this product and have something useful to offer. Plus I'll participate more now that I'm back into it... however, I'd rather spend my time answering serious people who are friendly and want to know things that I CAN answer from my perspective. Ok? (I don't care if it's ok that was rhetorical). Next!

PS. I'll likely ignore trolling posts out of respect to my own time and anyone reading. We don't need that filler. There's some good discussion to be had here and info to be shared.

You're wrong. Anyone with ties to the company has zero objectivity and has even less to contribute to this discussion than the opinions that you seek to diminish by labeling them as trolls. Whatever gets you through the night...

If it acts like a troll it is a troll. But, it is you who is wrong and I know this because I've been on KVR probably since before you were born. Developers and affiliates to companies are welcome here and always have been. It's not true that someone with ties to the company has ZERO objectivity but it is a good idea to take whatever they say with a grain of salt knowing they likely do have their biases. When it's a product you can actually try out yourself for free there's really no harm in listening to people who actually have experience making these kinds of products as you can always still judge for yourself. But, for sure if you happen to have a problem with it then maybe KVR just isn't the place for you. There are more official company forums on KVR than any other site focused on music software. My company, Sonic Reality, was one of the first ones. Your rude comments and assumptions are annoying and yeah actually you probably should be banned because what good does that offer the community? But, lucky for you that's not up to me.

Anyway, unless you have something interesting to say I'm going to ignore you so I can carry on discussion with people I can take seriously. Bye!

Since we're waxing poetic, if it acts like a shill, it is a shill.

and I'm the mod that is once again going to ask this to stop...any further posts like this will be deleted /end

[Squids]

Im just waiting for the demo

Thank you for helping this thread get back on track. Yes, this is really going to be interesting. I'm working on some different things that can show the plug-in off in ways that help others to see what I see in it. But, I'm not the only one doing the demos. I'm just experimenting with that because I also find it interesting as a producer/engineer myself... like studying how it sounds on different instruments and vocals. I'm usually finding these things out while working on a deadline project such as an album. But, this time I get to really try it all out in much more detail than I normally would because I picked a few songs of mine that were already released. So, there's no pressure to finish new mixes of them except for demo purposes (and I'll eventually release the alt mix songs most likely but no one has pre-ordered them so that can happen any time). One of the songs features me on vocals joined by Durga McBroom, long time vocalist with Pink Floyd. I did a variety of male and female vocal songs plus some instrumental pieces. But, that's just the tip of the iceberg. I'm planning on doing a bunch of sound byte demos too and again that's in addition to whatever is normally planned. I don't usually do demos (I used to and want to start doing it again) but, like I said, I felt compelled to get involved in this one.

[simmo75]

I was actually interested in this reverb but, what a toxic thread. Damn!

[Squids]

Okay! Finally get to answer your post Songshark! Sorry for the wait I got a little distracted...

Squids...thanks for so much more detail re: the Sunset Sound plugin.

Putting aside the claimed merits of the product...I'd just ask you to consider the reality that $150 is hardly a "measly" (your word) amount to many of us. Since you cited Brainworx and Waves -- I have TONS of their plugs and have paid between $5 and $25 dollars for most of them (buying new w/vouchers and/or dealer discount) and never paid more than $50. Perhaps the closest analogy to Sunset Sound you cite are Waves Abbey Road Plates/Chamber which I paid in the low $20's for each (as I recall there are 3 different plates modeled on the Plates -- plus some additional AR tape delays in the Chambers.)

Which is all to say -- that if Sunset Sound were priced around $50, I would be far more interested, excited and curious. In my world $150 would be considered a HUGE amount to spend on one effects plugin -- especially given all the alternatives for reverb and ambience I already have! I'm not questioning IK's right to charge what they deem best for their business -- nor am I questioning the work that went into Sunset Sound or its absolute worth -- I'm only challenging your assertions and assumptions re: the relative value of $150 in today's plugin market. I think it was your phrase "measley $150" that caught my attention and made me realize we are on a different page re: pricing. (FYI -- one of the things I always loved as customer of EZSounds was how many products were available for $50 or far less.)

Well, one has to first compare apples with apples. First, there's the "regular price" and when we look at that Brainworx and Waves are typically much higher than IK. Some of those Brainworx plug-ins I got for $50 too were normally $300 or more... and yeah if you want them at the lower price you have to do the pick pack thing or wait until it's on sale and hope that it will be. For Waves, man, believe me I'm with you on that. They drop those prices super low and I grab them too when they're that low (like $29). No questions that sales are great! But, those technically are the exceptions. IK does some crazy group buys and promos too and whenever a new MAX bundle comes out that starts to get into the same discount percentage at least when in a bundle. But, not all companies are as aggressive when it comes to sale discounts or the frequency of them. That doesn't change their relative value. It only seems that way because of the sales which is a moving target technically.

In any case, I DO understand that to some people $150 is a lot. It probably wouldn't feel as high if it was $50 per plug-in if it was a suite of just the PLATES, just the CHAMBERS, just the ROOMS, just the SPRING. That's how the Abbey Road Plates and Chambers are. Separate plug-ins. Yes I know they're on sale right now. By all means go get 'em! I did! Haha. I collect ALL cool things like that because I simply can't resist. My friends just recorded at Abbey Road this past week! I wish I could afford to... and that is where I ultimate think that all of these type of plug-ins have value that's really worth much more than a few hundred dollars. As someone who tries my best to book studios like this and have spent thousands, to me a few hundred bucks to have an aspect of that sound to use any time is a bargain. I hope that clarifies at least where I'm coming from when I say it's not that much relatively speaking.

As for the Authorization manager -- I can't remember if that is the download that has all the demos on it -- but I guess you really haven't been around much (either here or on GS) in recent years if you are not aware of the MANY regular complaints about having to download and install the entire IK/T-racks catalogue of plugins when you buy or demo one. No, this certainly is not a dealbreaker (for me at least) -- and certainly not a reason to be furious and start insulting anyone -- but I do feel you are trivializing something that really is considered to be a big nuisance by many of us and which has been complained about regularly and FREQUENTLY -- which IK chooses not to address.

Oh I see. Well, I do get a lot of feedback but it's from well known artists, producers and engineers because I work with them and help them with their set ups which includes IK Multimedia products among other things. I don't spend as much time on forums and, like I said, that's not my job. But, I DO care about the user experience especially because I also use it and so do the people I work with. Believe me I lobby for things all the time! But, the reason I trivialize anyone's issues with the Authorization Manager is because I remember a time when the process was not nearly as good and it was frustrating. Now it works like a charm and you just download one app that handles all the auths for all the IK products. Yeah I guess it's large at 1.5gb. I hadn't really thought about that. But, internet is fast these days for most people and if space on the hard drive is a concern I suppose one can just trash the app after it's used and download again if/when needed. I don't see the big deal. But, what I DO see being a compromise is having to have and upgrade the entire T-RackS just to have one plug-in from it. I hear ya and I do agree it WOULD be nice if it was just each plug-in a la carte. But, if that's how it's built and this is the way it works then I personally don't mind... just like you don't seem to mind. I collect requests from myself and people I work with and the ones that we really want the most rise to the top. That's super low on the list to me. But, that's just my opinion. I have other requests that make a bigger difference to the workflow than the way the authorization manager and host app works.

And speaking of "not addressing" -- since you spent a paragraph raving about Lurssen (and were one of those responsible) -- and I'm speaking now as a huge fan of that plugin myself (and thank you for your role in it!) -- I'd sure love to hear your take on why there cannot be a simple bypass volume match -- or output level control -- on that plugin -- which SO many of us have BEGGED FOR (see threads here and GS) -- over the years. I don't mean for this thread to devolve into a features request debate on every IK product -- but this in particular strikes so many of us as such an obvious and frustrating omission on an otherwise stellar plugin -- which COULD be so SIMPLY REMEDIED. With you being someone behind Lurssen and who apparently uses it yourself -- I would love to hear your thinking as to why we can't get a simple way to hear what it's doing without the big level jump it puts in. And please explain to me the PURPOSE of the current "process bypass" switch -- which to me has such a huge level jump as to be completely useless. I hope you will respond to this!

Gavin Lurssen is a longtime friend of mine and I've used his services mastering some of my albums. At his studio he has this amazing chain of analog gear they use there for mastering that was made from years of experience working with Mastering Labs guru Doug Sax. So, the LMC was primarily designed to recreate that set up and the modeling wasn't just of the individual components but also of the whole thing studying and measuring and recreating how it sounds when run in certain series and other aspects that go deeper than I can even convey myself. All I can say is that when I mastered with them I felt like half the benefit I was getting was simply from running my tracks through their analog chain. In fact, I remember one time Gavin was busy mastering Eric Clapton or The Foo Fighters (higher priority than me understandably) and he said "look, Dave, we're slammed right now but if you want we can just run your tracks through the console which will get you at least that glue, presence and loudness you're looking for". So, he was going to do this for me as a favor and that's when I thought "hmmmm..." and a few years later this plug-in was made after I made the introduction. In a similar way to Sunset Sound Studio Reverb, I just wanted the product to exist so I could use it! I figured if I can use it so could a lot of people.

All right soooooo... back to your requests. I don't mind. I actually welcome requests personally and while I'm not the one to decide I am one to lobby for it if I'm convinced. Good news, the right developers DID see your request and even though I'm not sure I personally fully understand what you're asking for, I think I'm asking for the same thing but with even more control under the hood. I imagine in a future update we'll get these things so we just have to be patient is all. For now we just have to use LMC as is and work around any idiosyncrasies we find odd. That's probably exactly what happens at his studio. But, the difference there is they have a human with tons of mastering experience taking the track to the finish line and using Sonic Solutions or whatever to finalize everything. We have to be that mastering engineer too and work with the tool to get the end result we want. But, yeah, there's all kinds of upgrades that could be made to it that could make sense. It's not up to me though. I can only ask!

BTW, it's good to see you back here. I enjoy your posts -- you write articulately and with passion.

Well, thank you! That's refreshing to hear. I'm glad you feel that way. I've been less active on forums like KVR and GS not because I don't like it. I've learned a lot from both. But, for the past 10 years I've spent a LOT more time actually making music which is why I'm interested in all of this stuff in the first place. I put out four albums last year and plan to do even more this year. I value my time more than I used to when I posted thousands of times here! haha. Now I can see how easy it is to get sucked back in... but, if I do it's to interact with people who are respectful and friendly that want to know things or be heard. For that I can help... as long as everyone understand I'm not an official rep, I'm not paid to be here by anyone and I speak my mind freely (with a attempt to refrain from reacting harshly to bashing). You've been heard and I would say the chances are good that your feature requests will be considered. Thanks!

[Squids]

I was actually interested in this reverb but, what a toxic thread. Damn!

Is it? I can see you've joined in 2016. For some of us who go back to 2002 this is nothing. We've seen way way worse. But, hopefully you can see past the distractions and get some useful info here. A lot has been shared. It's not all toxic. However, if it bugs you I suggest simply ignoring it and downloading the demo when it's available. If you're actually interested in the reverb then try it and if you find it useful to you that speaks a million times more than what any of us have to say. The only thing that really matters is in the end is what each person thinks of it. Everything else is useful or not useful info. Once you have it and are making music or mixing with it all of our banter will hopefully be an irrelevant distant memory. Unless a good tip was shared that is.

[simmo75]

I was actually interested in this reverb but, what a toxic thread. Damn!

Is it? I can see you've joined in 2016. For some of us who go back to 2002 this is nothing. We've seen way way worse. But, hopefully you can see past the distractions and get some useful info here. A lot has been shared. It's not all toxic. However, if it bugs you I suggest simply ignoring it and downloading the demo when it's available. If you're actually interested in the reverb then try it and if you find it useful to you that speaks a million times more than what any of us have to say. The only thing that really matters is in the end is what each person thinks of it. Everything else is useful or not useful info. Once you have it and are making music or mixing with it all of our banter will hopefully be an irrelevant distant memory. Unless a good tip was shared that is.

I’ll definitely be downloading the demo. I feel for Peter having to deal with the shit he gets, he’s a very patient man.