[Intro pricing extended] Available now: T-RackS Sunset Sound Studio Reverb

[cprompt]

I'll be sharing some audio demos very soon.

Awesome, I look forward to them

[rj0]

I do it because I helped make the product happen ...

And I, for one, am glad you have. It may well be a very good plugin. IK puts out a lot of very good product, and this certainly could be one of them. I've appreciated so very much of what they've put out, and wish them the very best in their continuing success.

But, as I said, it may not be my job to be here but that IS Peter's job and I can see he's being quite frustrated and annoyed with the bashing of both him, the plug-in and the company ...

Understood, and agreed.

It's not for you.

I absolutely hate that line! I find it dismissive and condescending. Please do not repeat it.

... but, you might not get every answer you seek because not all aspect of how a product is made or what's done under the hood is explained publicly. I want to be accurate and avoid causing confusion.

Fair enough. I think we all understand that.

I know the biggest request and criticisms on this are what it does beyond being a collection of IR ...

Yes, that's been a key question.

... and also the price. The price part is subjective...

Personally, for me, from what I'm seeing at this point, it as too expensive for what it delivers, but that's just my perception. I'm also equally sure that others won't, and that they will love it when it comes out, and be thrilled with it, and put it to great use (and not experience buyer's regret).

From a marketing perspective, I would say your main challenge is to assist with convincing those on the fence with their understanding and their perceptions. Solid information goes a long way here. Vague information goes in the opposite direction. That's a primary point that I've been trying to make.

But, regarding the questions about the IR, the reason you're not getting more details in answer to your questions on that is not because of some "smoke and mirrors".

Again, the lack of detail can lead to that perception, which is how we got "here", and that is why it is so important (especially in a pre-release) to clarify as much as you can, otherwise customers start assuming the worst. The more that you can level with customers, the better your relationship going forward. That is so key.

Sure, I'd like to know more details myself but I either don't always get those answers, don't understand them because I'm not a software developer or I do but if that info isn't presented officially in the marketing materials I'm not necessarily at liberty to share it.

However, I will try and see if I CAN share more info about what's going on under the hood.

Please do, to the degree that you can.

But, I'm not going to be "manipulated" into doing that because I'm accused of purposely holding back that info to fool anyone.

I understand taking a defensive stance, but keep in mind that many here will not interpret that in a positive way.

Best wishes, and I hope the product is everything you hope it to be.

[VitaminD]

Thanks Hink. Allow me to explain a couple things about the Dude here. haha. But, seriously, I want to clarify something once and hopefully not have to keep repeating it. Yes I am affiliated with IK in many ways and have been for years. But, when it comes to making money directly off products, that's really only when I produce a sample library. I wish I did get paid directly for the sale of a product like this but I'm telling you I don't and it's not my job to come in here and talk about it either. I do it because I helped make the product happen and it was one of my suggestions because I wanted to use it in my own music productions. REALLY. If that doesn't make sense to you then I'm sorry but it's true. The reason I want people to understand why I wanted this product to be made and why I think it's useful or fun or just great to have is because after all this work to see it happen of course I want it to reach the people it was made for. People who appreciate all aspects of it like I do.

But, also, when a product like this is successful I have some fuel to ask for more products to be made. If my product suggestions were unsuccessful why would the developers listen to me? "yeah great idea Dave but sorry". That's my motivation to help convey what IS great about it to anyone I can. I believe in it and I hope enough people get it so I can keep going with my requests... I've got a long list! Haha. But, I've been lobbying for things since day 1 when I met the developers of IK in 2001... and I even factor in requests I hear (particularly feature requests after a product is released) from people I come across. In fact, that even happened right in front of your eyes earlier in this thread. Don't be surprised when that feature ends up in an update of LMC!

But, as I said, it may not be my job to be here but that IS Peter's job and I can see he's being quite frustrated and annoyed with the bashing of both him, the plug-in and the company so... as Hink pointed out, please if you have a negative opinion to share that's fine but to repeat it over and over is abusive. We get it. If you don't like it that's fine. It's not for you. But, please respect that it IS for other people who are interested and probably don't want this thread to be locked or to have to sift through lots of bad vibes just to get to the info that's of interest to them.

I know you guys want all kinds of answers and you'll get many of them with time, but, you might not get every answer you seek because not all aspect of how a product is made or what's done under the hood is explained publicly. This goes for many pro audio companies. I don't know every detail of every product I own. I only know what each company shares publicly. It's up to the company how much technical info they share about a product. We've already stretched the sharing of info beyond what has been publicly announced so Peter has to be careful since it's his job and while it isn't my job I still have to be careful not to cross that boundary too... in fact, even talking too much about what I have which is a beta version can be tricky because by the time the product is a release candidate things can change. I want to be accurate and avoid causing confusion.

I know the biggest request and criticisms on this are what it does beyond being a collection of IR and also the price. The price part is subjective... to some it's expensive and to others it's quite reasonable and affordable and it also depends on how you look at it or compare. I've offered some food for thought in terms of comparing this and that but really each person knows what they want, to what extent they want it (especially after hearing it or using it) and if they can afford it or not.

But, regarding the questions about the IR, the reason you're not getting more details in answer to your questions on that is not because of some "smoke and mirrors". From my end, I can tell you it's because of two distinct things. One is that I was there for part of the sessions and helped set this whole thing up but I don't know every detail. I do know that MANY IR were captured with lots of options of mics and mic placement and other things. I also know, because I was a big part of this, that instruments and vocals were also recorded in each of the rooms (both sounds and actual songs) and run through all of the studio's reverbs (which was difficult and time consuming to do since it's an active studio so we had to wait for openings in each room to capture everything). This was done for both internal testing and tweaking to understand the acoustic space and how it reacts to different instruments and voices as well as for content I'm using to make various demos at the same time... because they're either my songs or people I've worked with who have given permission to use the songs for demoing.

Then, the studio and top engineers who know the studio get the beta and we discuss it in context of actual sessions, not just in theory or from clinical tests which are also done. Overall, many time consuming things are done to perfect the science and art of it as a whole and that can only be done with deep cooperation of the studio... and we know that's never been done until now. All of this includes modeling of their equipment at the studio and also other things under the hood that I'm not privy to except that I'm hearing the desired result audibly and that, to me at least, is all that really matters. How it sounds in the end and how it compares to the real thing. I'm not a software developer. I'm a musician, engineer and producer so, for me, it's enough to use my ears and know that I like it and would use it. Sure, I'd like to know more details myself but I either don't always get those answers, don't understand them because I'm not a software developer or I do but if that info isn't presented officially in the marketing materials I'm not necessarily at liberty to share it.

However, I will try and see if I CAN share more info about what's going on under the hood. But, I'm not going to be "manipulated" into doing that because I'm accused of purposely holding back that info to fool anyone. That's offensive. So, please read what I'm saying. This is why you're getting the info you're getting right now. I'm only saying what I know and/or what I know I can say for now before it's even released. I'm sure this will change over time to at least a certain extent.

No offense, but I doubt many are going to read all that. It is way too long. Closer to a speech....

This is a chat forum in the year 2020; our attention spans are shortened and we're used to more concise thoughts spoken in fewer words. A couple of paragraphs tops. Otherwise you risk turning people off...

[Kaboom75]

Will there be IR of that Van Halen room done with rubbish all over the floor for the same acoustics?

[glokraw]

Thanks Hink. Allow me to explain a couple things
snip
I'm only saying what I know and/or what I know I can say for now before it's even released. I'm sure this will change over time to at least a certain extent.

No offense, but I doubt many are going to read all that.

There are a few people here whose long posts are consistantly
worth reading to me, as I've so much to learn.
It's interesting to me to learn a little about what goes on
behind the scenes.

Allow me to edit part of your post a little:
"No offense, but I doubt many are going to accomplish all that"

[glokraw]

If someone overcranks the gain, drive, wet/dry, filter and other controls, a bypass that compensates for those choices might be easy on the ears, but how will you learn
to get the optimum settings if you don't hear those that are less than optimum?

It's a lot easier to hear that those settings are "less than optimum" if you aren't being misled by "louder is better".

I can't quite believe that this needs explaining.

I read some about IK's Lurssen, and installed the demo,
used it for an hour or so. The docs state it replicates
an analog chain Lurssen use, so I doubt there is anything
in the chain just for the 'louder is better' crowd.
I loaded the same tracks in both the Lurssen plugin and standalone, and didn't notice any huge boost in gain,
and the presets were on the subtle side, as well.
The main EQ did it's job, in this case boosting tablas and dumbeks, while toning down some middle-east twangeries.

I mainly use Harrison Mixbus for such things,
but the Lurrsen gui has nice big gui controls,
while mixbus has smaller 'squeeze-it-in-a-daw' sized
widgets. Lurrsen plugin in the Mixbus daw?
maybe when the taxman has come and gone

[Squids]

Yeah I know my posts are long. Sorry! I get excited. I'll try to keep my replies a little shorter but can't promise anything. Reading is optional.

Anyway, I have to disagree that saying something like "this plug-in may not be for you" is necessarily condescending or dismissive. It depends on the context. I think it's very literal when someone is comparing massive time consuming costly effort like this with that of indy freeware developers and/or people who capture IR as a hobby and give them away. A plug-in like this from a popular commercial manufacturer isn't made for the person who expects it to compete with that price-wise. It's just not realistic for all the many reasons already mentioned. I would say that this plug-in is for the person who already buys plug-ins from the more commercial larger manufacturers like IK that cost in this range of $100-200 or more. I do think it's worth the price, especially considering that other manufacturers do things like Plates, Chambers, Rooms, Spring as separate plug-ins and this has them all in one. But, also for other reasons like the deluxe way it's being done. This isn't just licensing a brand name and slapping it on there, the studio has been very much involved and the end results are that much better for it. That, to me, is worth the money but everyone's value perception is different so...

With regard to the information that's shared. First, I hope you realize and appreciate that both Peter and I have shared with you more information than has yet been publicly released. You now know definitively that there's much more than 12 IR and a generic convolution player involved. There are also going to be cool features you don't yet know about that will allow some nice customization and tweaking. As I said, more will be revealed when the final version is finished and released which won't be too long from now. But, in terms of expectations being put in proper perspective regarding what's shared "under the hood", I point to UA, Waves, Brainworx and other high end software manufacturers and what's shared or not shared about the inner workings of their plug-ins. For example, does Waves go into detail how many IR they used inside say the Abbey Road Plate or Chamber plug-ins? I doubt it. But, I gotta tell you, as a customer of this stuff myself I didn't care I just went ahead and bought both of those and the rest of that series. I think most customers look at it, listen to it and just buy it if they like it without being so particular about these things you guys are getting stuck on mentally. It may seem popular here on a forum of people who like to discuss all aspects of plug-ins, but, overall I think most musicians, songwriters, producers and engineers just like to get cool plug-ins that sound great and this one definitely does!

So, this whole notion of "what aren't you telling us? hmmm" is slightly overly dramatized in my opinion. However, I could see that some people here were getting stuck on that and if it was holding you back to think that it was basic in the IR area, I was happy to confirm that it is not. There are some cool tricks being done with this to emulate what it would be like and sound like if you were recording and/or mixing at this iconic studio. But, for the record, no of course it's not gonna make your music sound like you're Van Halen or The Doors. It's just sonic flavors and audio effects (talent not included )

[songshark]

I loaded the same tracks in both the Lurssen plugin and standalone, and didn't notice any huge boost in gain,:

And I use Lurssen regularly and have never NOT noticed a big boost in gain -- so it's hard to believe we're talking about the same plugin!

In any case -- we're only talking about adding an OPTIONAL function -- and from what Squids has implied -- it's likely in the works so hopefully all parties -- especially the MANY of us who have been requesting this ever since Lurssen was released -- will be pleased. I know I will!

[Symphony Sid]

I loaded the same tracks in both the Lurssen plugin and standalone, and didn't notice any huge boost in gain,:

And I use Lurssen regularly and have never NOT noticed a big boost in gain -- so it's hard to believe we're talking about the same plugin!

In any case -- we're only talking about adding an OPTIONAL function -- and from what Squids has implied -- it's likely in the works so hopefully all parties -- especially the MANY of us who have been requesting this ever since Lurssen was released -- will be pleased. I know I will!

SS is right. When I use it at my buddy's studio I have to go in and reduce the level of the make up gain to the minimum value of +2. It's normally twice that or more. Ideally you should be able to set it to 0. But IK has known about it for years and done nothing. Really annoying in what is supposed to be a professional mastering plug.

[Peter - IK Multimedia]

Like Squids says, T-RackS Sunset Sound Studio Reverb isn't going to magically make your actual music sound like Led Zeppelin, The Doors, Macy Gray, Prince, or the other artists that recorded there but it is cool to have access to what he called the "sonic flavors" that were painstakingly worked on by our team in conjunction with the people at Sunset Sound. For those unaware of some of the classics that came out of this great studio, here's a playlist:

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=P ... 13pSO-R_zj

[rj0]

Anyway, I have to disagree that saying something like "this plug-in may not be for you" is necessarily condescending or dismissive. It depends on the context. I think it's very literal when someone is comparing massive time consuming costly effort like this with that of indy freeware developers and/or people who capture IR as a hobby and give them away. A plug-in like this from a popular commercial manufacturer isn't made for the person who expects it to compete with that price-wise. It's just not realistic for all the many reasons already mentioned. I would say that this plug-in is for the person who already buys plug-ins from the more commercial larger manufacturers like IK that cost in this range of $100-200 or more. I do think it's worth the price, especially considering that other manufacturers do things like Plates, Chambers, Rooms, Spring as separate plug-ins and this has them all in one. But, also for other reasons like the deluxe way it's being done. This isn't just licensing a brand name and slapping it on there, the studio has been very much involved and the end results are that much better for it. That, to me, is worth the money but everyone's value perception is different so...

What can I say? When you're right, you're right. It's not like most KVRers (on average) typically already have a large collection of reverbs and are doing any kind of pointed value-related questioning so as to determine whether we need YAR (Yet Another Reverb).

And being told "maybe it's not for you" is no worse than going to an expensive restaurant and being told that maybe we don't belong there.

In any case, best wishes on the new product, and take care.

[glokraw]

I made a nearby Lurssen tips/uses thread,
in case this is too off-topic here.
Cheers

[Squids]

I loaded the same tracks in both the Lurssen plugin and standalone, and didn't notice any huge boost in gain,:

And I use Lurssen regularly and have never NOT noticed a big boost in gain -- so it's hard to believe we're talking about the same plugin!

In any case -- we're only talking about adding an OPTIONAL function -- and from what Squids has implied -- it's likely in the works so hopefully all parties -- especially the MANY of us who have been requesting this ever since Lurssen was released -- will be pleased. I know I will!

SS is right. When I use it at my buddy's studio I have to go in and reduce the level of the make up gain to the minimum value of +2. It's normally twice that or more. Ideally you should be able to set it to 0. But IK has known about it for years and done nothing. Really annoying in what is supposed to be a professional mastering plug.

It is a professional mastering plug-in but the aim of it has always been to emulate the analog mastering rig at Lurssen Mastering (which doesn't have this volume compensation feature for A/B there either or it would have been recreated in the plug-in already). This feature IS in T-RackS by the way but TR is a different animal (ie. it's not meant to emulate an engineer's whole analog chain like LMC is).

Anyway, LMC is due for an update with new features that have been requested. As I said, I have had a bunch of requests myself because I've used LMC and their mastering services at the facility and for DIY stuff there are things I'd like to see. I haven't spent as much time on the forums as I could have (good excuse: making music, though). But, this feature Song Shark and others is a good one even if it actually isn't originally part of Gavin Lurssen's set up in analog hardware. It shouldn't stray too far from his system and process BUT I agree that feature is just too useful not to add to it as an option. So there you go.

[Squids]

Anyway, I have to disagree that saying something like "this plug-in may not be for you" is necessarily condescending or dismissive. It depends on the context. I think it's very literal when someone is comparing massive time consuming costly effort like this with that of indy freeware developers and/or people who capture IR as a hobby and give them away. A plug-in like this from a popular commercial manufacturer isn't made for the person who expects it to compete with that price-wise. It's just not realistic for all the many reasons already mentioned. I would say that this plug-in is for the person who already buys plug-ins from the more commercial larger manufacturers like IK that cost in this range of $100-200 or more. I do think it's worth the price, especially considering that other manufacturers do things like Plates, Chambers, Rooms, Spring as separate plug-ins and this has them all in one. But, also for other reasons like the deluxe way it's being done. This isn't just licensing a brand name and slapping it on there, the studio has been very much involved and the end results are that much better for it. That, to me, is worth the money but everyone's value perception is different so...

What can I say? When you're right, you're right. It's not like most KVRers (on average) typically already have a large collection of reverbs and are doing any kind of pointed value-related questioning so as to determine whether we need YAR (Yet Another Reverb).

And being told "maybe it's not for you" is no worse than going to an expensive restaurant and being told that maybe we don't belong there.

In any case, best wishes on the new product, and take care.

Thanks. Although I still don't think that should be interpreted that way. I know it can look like your "expensive restaurant snobbery analogy" type of comment but I don't mean it that way. As I said, it's all about context to derive the meaning and intention. I'm just literally saying the product is created to fill a demand that comes from engineers and musicians who look for accurate representations of iconic studio gear and related things who are willing to spend a $100-200 or more if necessary to get it. It just so happens I'm one of those people and I know there are a lot of others too. So, of course, the product is targeted to them not the guy who is satisfied with a freeware convolution reverb and free IR that are floating around. I'm not saying that can't be used to good effect in someone's music. I'm sure it can! But, a product like this just wasn't made to please someone who's thinking that way.

In any case, I didn't intend it to be dismissive or snobby. I simply wanted to confirm what someone was essentially saying themselves and that's that they aren't even an IK customer and don't want to be because they're happy with other stuff that's cheaper or whatever. That's fine. Different strokes! But, as long as the person doesn't just stick around to rain on everyone else's parade and continually bash the company or the people connected with the product. That one guy apparently got himself banned from two forums for taking that too far. That's a shame but it was his choice to do that and he was even warned about it. I guess forums are not for him! haha. (kidding of course... but I suppose that is literally the case).

[Squids]

By the way, a little side not as this thread got off track talking about the authorization process and other things a few times and I was trying to understand everyone's concerns or gripes so I could better respond to it. There was this talk about the Authorization Manager being massive to download and I was puzzled because the last time I downloaded it the app it was fast and I confirmed that it's only 7mb. So... to download a 7mb app that can be used to authorize ALL IK Multimedia plug-ins shouldn't be a big deal I wouldn't think.

But, yes, to get just one of the T-RackS singles you do need to download the whole thing which is just shy of 2 gigabytes I think. That's just the way the system works for that. If all you wanted was that one TR Single then I can see where that could be an unnecessary annoyance. I think that could very well change in a future update it's just not something simple to change right away. From my personal experience working with and/or talking to a lot of engineers, producers and musicians, I've actually never run across anyone who only uses one (it's like someone eating just one Dorito haha). But, I'm serious. Most users would have a bunch of them if not the MAX bundle to get the best deal on all of them since you never know what might be useful in a session... a model of a Neve EQ or compressor or model of an API or SSL or Fairchild or 1176 and the list goes on. Then there are the new additions like the Leslie and Tape Machines suite as well as Sunset Sound Studio Reverb coming next. So, again, the majority of customers don't worry too much about a download that's 2 gigabytes when they're gonna be using a variety of plug-ins from the range anyway (and there's no more downloading necessary when you want to authorize and turn on other effects in that TR range). However, when there's a promo to get a cheap or free single plug-in I agree it would be better if it was JUST that plug-in and not the whole system. Eh so... for that it'll have to be in a future update to change. No one disagrees it's just a different approach that's all. It's currently geared a bit more toward the person who wants a collection of outboard gear than it is someone who just wants one.