Which DAWs support CC out from MIDI FX devices like Reason Rack VST?

Plug-in hosts and other software applications discussion
sl1200mk2
KVRist
143 posts since 6 Jun, 2003

Post Sat Feb 22, 2020 1:55 pm

evo2slo wrote:
Sat Feb 22, 2020 1:37 pm
sl1200mk2 wrote:
Fri Feb 21, 2020 3:22 pm
Does anyone know if this works in Cubase 10.5? I haven't had any luck yet, but I'm just getting familiar with Cubase again as I primarily use Studio One, so it could totally be user error.
Here's how to route Reason Rack in Cubase 10.5 with third party instruments (quick and dirty):
Image

- Set Midi In on instrument to Reason Rack
- connect cv from modulator to midi out instance in Rack
- assign cc an unused number
- midi learn the control you want to affect (lower the cv scale on the cv's you don't want to learn when assigning multiple cv's)

A word of warning, Cubase is crashing on me when I remove Reason Rack from a project. It seems to save fine though. I think it's a system specific error as it's working okay for most I think. Hopefully Reason will fix it soon, I've submitted a ticket.
Thank you very much! Greatly appreciate the detail and effort! I'll give this a try tonight.

chimp_spanner
KVRist
80 posts since 27 Jan, 2003 from Colchester, Essex, England

Re: Which DAWs support CC out from MIDI FX devices like Reason Rack VST?

Post Mon Feb 24, 2020 7:36 am

Having spoken to Mattias about this (and I'm sure he can correct me if I get anything wrong!), RRP implements VST3 entirely correctly. The problem, is VST3 itself. It doesn't allow plugins to send MIDI CC directly. Instead they're converted to automation data, and this is something that has to be enabled on the hosts side. Which is the reason it works in some things, and not others. I believe the Reaper devs literally added it a few days ago (again correct me if I'm wrong!). Cubase already has it because, well, it's Steinberg and they own the format and the DAW. I've opened up a ticket with Presonus. And anyone using Bitwig, Live, etc. will have to do the same.

Otherwise if you're on Mac, just use the AU and it will work. Got it going in Studio One 4 Pro here on Mojave.
Insert something profound/blatant self promotion/DAW specs here.

chimp_spanner
KVRist
80 posts since 27 Jan, 2003 from Colchester, Essex, England

Re: Which DAWs support CC out from MIDI FX devices like Reason Rack VST?

Post Mon Feb 24, 2020 7:39 am

I actually first found it out here on KVR the other day in this thread;

viewtopic.php?t=538083

I think this explains what's going on, assuming I'm reading it right! I don't code so I might be making a tit out of myself haha.
Insert something profound/blatant self promotion/DAW specs here.

Dewdman42
KVRAF
1771 posts since 14 Mar, 2006

Re: Which DAWs support CC out from MIDI FX devices like Reason Rack VST?

Post Mon Feb 24, 2020 5:08 pm

Use VST2 if you can.

The VST3 sdk broke several midi related things. A couple years ago Steinberg reluctantly added a "legacy" feature for getting CC events out of VST3 plugins if those plugins handle it AND the host has to know to use that legacy feature as well, and as of today, not all do, its an add-on kludge.

No guarantees either about sending PitchBend, AfterTouch, ProgramChange non-note events out of VST3 plugins either by the way.
MacPro 5,1 12core x 3.46ghz-128gb 10.14, X32+AES16e-50

User avatar
antic604
KVRAF
4040 posts since 4 Jan, 2017 from Warsaw, Poland

Re: Which DAWs support CC out from MIDI FX devices like Reason Rack VST?

Post Mon Feb 24, 2020 9:27 pm

Dewdman42 wrote:
Mon Feb 24, 2020 5:08 pm
Use VST2 if you can.
Reason Rack VST, which this topic is mostly about, is available only in VST3 and AU formats :(
Bitwig 3 // Reason 11 // Studio One 4 Pro @ Lenovo Y730 15'' i7-8750h
my music - https://soundcloud.com/antic604

Dewdman42
KVRAF
1771 posts since 14 Mar, 2006

Re: Which DAWs support CC out from MIDI FX devices like Reason Rack VST?

Post Mon Feb 24, 2020 9:34 pm

Haaa they probably couldn't get the license!

Well, sorry to inform you, for now, CC midi out is not going to consistently work from VST3 in all hosts. Maybe someday.
MacPro 5,1 12core x 3.46ghz-128gb 10.14, X32+AES16e-50

Dewdman42
KVRAF
1771 posts since 14 Mar, 2006

Re: Which DAWs support CC out from MIDI FX devices like Reason Rack VST?

Post Mon Feb 24, 2020 9:36 pm

As a workaround, you could use the VST2 version of BlueCatAudio patchworks. Host the VST3 reason inside it. Patchworks will do all the right stuff to get the CC's out of the VST3...and then it will be seen by your main host as a VST2 and all should work fine.
MacPro 5,1 12core x 3.46ghz-128gb 10.14, X32+AES16e-50

chimp_spanner
KVRist
80 posts since 27 Jan, 2003 from Colchester, Essex, England

Re: Which DAWs support CC out from MIDI FX devices like Reason Rack VST?

Post Tue Feb 25, 2020 12:17 am

Dewdman42 wrote:
Mon Feb 24, 2020 9:36 pm
As a workaround, you could use the VST2 version of BlueCatAudio patchworks. Host the VST3 reason inside it. Patchworks will do all the right stuff to get the CC's out of the VST3...and then it will be seen by your main host as a VST2 and all should work fine.
Provided there's no stability issues that's probably a good shout! In the meantime it's good to see that it *can* be implemented; I don't know if Cockos had this in the works for a while or if they were just that quick off the mark that they were able to fix it within days of it being an issue.

So hopefully this'll just require a little patience while the major DAWs get caught up.
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Dewdman42
KVRAF
1771 posts since 14 Mar, 2006

Re: Which DAWs support CC out from MIDI FX devices like Reason Rack VST?

Post Tue Feb 25, 2020 7:52 am

Well VST3 could not output CC’s for nearly a decade. Then a couple years ago steinberg added the legacy feature which reaper just recently added support for. I wouldn’t exactly call that quick but some other daws may or may not have even done that or have it on their radar yet. You have to experiment to find out.
MacPro 5,1 12core x 3.46ghz-128gb 10.14, X32+AES16e-50

Dewdman42
KVRAF
1771 posts since 14 Mar, 2006

Re: Which DAWs support CC out from MIDI FX devices like Reason Rack VST?

Post Tue Feb 25, 2020 10:56 am

ps - BlueCatAudio has been on top of these issues and all discussions related to these issues, so I feel confident it will work as a wrapper for you, but let us know how it goes if you decide to try it. Try the demo and see.
MacPro 5,1 12core x 3.46ghz-128gb 10.14, X32+AES16e-50

Karbon L. Forms
KVRian
1236 posts since 10 Jun, 2004 from Inverness, Scotland

Re: Which DAWs support CC out from MIDI FX devices like Reason Rack VST?

Post Wed Feb 26, 2020 6:41 am

I tried with BlueCat (VST2 Demo) in Bitwig. No joy.
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"Hell is other People" J.P.Sartre
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Dewdman42
KVRAF
1771 posts since 14 Mar, 2006

Re: Which DAWs support CC out from MIDI FX devices like Reason Rack VST?

Post Wed Feb 26, 2020 8:45 am

Why no joy? You maybe needed to configure the midi routing inside patchworks which is not enabled by default
MacPro 5,1 12core x 3.46ghz-128gb 10.14, X32+AES16e-50

Karbon L. Forms
KVRian
1236 posts since 10 Jun, 2004 from Inverness, Scotland

Re: Which DAWs support CC out from MIDI FX devices like Reason Rack VST?

Post Wed Feb 26, 2020 9:20 am

My mistake. I was expecting to see Bitwig's flashy yellow MIDI square for CC Out, but nope. Took a closer look using midiMonitor and a MIDI Modulator. There is indeed CC out. All good.
.................................
"Hell is other People" J.P.Sartre
.................................

Karbon L. Forms
KVRian
1236 posts since 10 Jun, 2004 from Inverness, Scotland

Re: Which DAWs support CC out from MIDI FX devices like Reason Rack VST?

Post Wed Feb 26, 2020 9:26 am

But not worth blowing cash on BC Patchwork just for that. I can output the Reason LFO's/whatever as audio and use Bitwig's Audio Rate Modulator.
.................................
"Hell is other People" J.P.Sartre
.................................

User avatar
antic604
KVRAF
4040 posts since 4 Jan, 2017 from Warsaw, Poland

Re: Which DAWs support CC out from MIDI FX devices like Reason Rack VST?

Post Wed Feb 26, 2020 9:39 am

Karbon L. Forms wrote:
Wed Feb 26, 2020 9:26 am
But not worth blowing cash on BC Patchwork just for that. I can output the Reason LFO's/whatever as audio and use Bitwig's Audio Rate Modulator.
Wow, haven't thought of that. Likely the resolution will be better, too :)
Bitwig 3 // Reason 11 // Studio One 4 Pro @ Lenovo Y730 15'' i7-8750h
my music - https://soundcloud.com/antic604

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