3.2 (Beta 1) is OUT!!!

[SB-SIX]

I agree with the principle of simplicity & minimising the number of devices, but two volume controls on tool and more than one LFO are fine from a design perspective.

Regarding the Tool, I'd say that you typically have two types of volume controls in the analog realm - gain knobs (which typically add +- some amount of gain), and faders, which allow you to completely reduce the volume of a sound to zero. These are separate functions and warrant separate controls. Trying to make small gain adjustments with a knob that goes from -inf dB to +30db is really annoying, so having one control for the minor adjustments and one control for complete cuts makes sense to me.

Regarding LFOs, these are creative functions that have a multitude of uses. There are literally hundreds of LFOs in the Eurorack realm and each one (well... most of them hehe) has interesting and unique functionality.

In Bitwig, I think Classic LFO and the regular LFO could probably be merged, but Beat LFO should stay separate to these two, as it's a very different approach and enables different creative results.

Yes there could be more lfo's if they are different enough. For instance a drawable lfo and a normal lfo. The beat lfo is not very distinct to me, why can't it be merged into 1 lfo that has the option to enable sync or not, like in many other devices?

Same with the tool. There is too much overlap in the meaning of the words gain and volume. If we make the parallel to eurorack, I don't think there is any module with both gain and volume. It's too confusing, people will grab the wrong knob all the time.

[Hez]

Yes there could be more lfo's if they are different enough. For instance a drawable lfo and a normal lfo. The beat lfo is not very distinct to me, why can't it be merged into 1 lfo that has the option to enable sync or not, like in many other devices?

Same with the tool. There is too much overlap in the meaning of the words gain and volume. If we make the parallel to eurorack, I don't think there is any module with both gain and volume. It's too confusing, people will grab the wrong knob all the time.

I don't mean to be disparaging, but have you actually used the Beat LFO much? It doesn't just sync to the beat, it generates strange rhythmic shapes that always repeat in sync with the tempo, depending on how you set the offset etc. It's actually pretty fun to use, though I'm never sure exactly what result I'm going to get

Fair point re: Eurorack modules and gain, although I'd perhaps make an analogy to hardware mixers instead here - every single hardware mixer I've ever used has had both a gain knob and a volume fader for each channel, i.e. they are clearly delineated functions that are intended to be used in conjunction with one another. In the Bitwig realm, having two knobs for volume also allows you to be more creative with modulation etc. - set some rhythmic modulation on the gain knob, and still have the option to fade this sound down to zero if required.

EDIT: Having said that, I personally would have implemented the volume knob as a 0 dB -> -inf dB control. I don't see the benefit in having +18dB on the volume 'fader' when you already have 36dB of gain on the gain knob, and it makes automation etc. messier if you're constantly having to make sure you go back up to 50% gain, instead of ramming the fader all the way back up to the top

[antic604]

I don't mean to be disparaging, but have you actually used the Beat LFO much? It doesn't just sync to the beat, it generates strange rhythmic shapes that always repeat in sync with the tempo, depending on how you set the offset etc. It's actually pretty fun to use, though I'm never sure exactly what result I'm going to get

But the question should be different - is there anything you can do with Beat LFO that you can't with either Classic LFO or LFO? The only thing I can see is lack of "apply groove" icon to the latter two, which should be possible.

[antic604]

In the Bitwig realm, having two knobs for volume also allows you to be more creative with modulation etc. - set some rhythmic modulation on the gain knob, and still have the option to fade this sound down to zero if required.

But it's not Eurorack. You could use one Utility for modulation and the other for Volume control

Just to be clear - I don't mind the two buttons layout. I'd prefer one, but it's not an issue.

[Hez]

I don't mean to be disparaging, but have you actually used the Beat LFO much? It doesn't just sync to the beat, it generates strange rhythmic shapes that always repeat in sync with the tempo, depending on how you set the offset etc. It's actually pretty fun to use, though I'm never sure exactly what result I'm going to get

But the question should be different - is there anything you can do with Beat LFO that you can't with either Classic LFO or LFO? The only thing I can see is lack of "apply groove" icon to the latter two, which should be possible.

Yes, there is! Here are two shapes I just quickly dialled in (with single beat LFOs) which would require at least two regular LFOs, or regular LFOs + Maths, to achieve.

[antic604]

Yes, there is! Here are two shapes I just quickly dialled in (with single beat LFOs) which would require at least two regular LFOs, or regular LFOs + Maths, to achieve.

Ok, interesting. Can you show the settings?

[Hez]

Sure.

[antic604]

Sure.

Thanks! Aren't the same controls - and consequently: shapes - available in 'regular' LFO, though? I believe you can sync it to transport with the drop-down at the bottom and set to a note with a multiplier up top? Or perhaps I'm confusing it with Classic LFO.



Anyway, we could probably talk about inconsistencies and redundancies for hours and that applies to any DAW, not just Bitwig

[Hez]

Sure.

Thanks! Aren't the same controls - and consequently: shapes - available in 'regular' LFO, though? I believe you can sync it to transport with the drop-down at the bottom and set to a note with a multiplier up top? Or perhaps I'm confusing it with Classic LFO.



Anyway, we could probably talk about inconsistencies and redundancies for hours and that applies to any DAW, not just Bitwig

No, as far as I'm aware you can't get the same shapes with the other LFOs, the beat LFO has some sort of algorithm that creates strange shapes when you have the Rate & Offset in between 'standard' beat divisions, where it forces the shape to still cycle every e.g. 1 bar, but the shape morphs itself to accomodate this cycle length.

Regarding inconsistencies, sure, I think it's fair to look at Bitwig critically when it comes to duplication of features, especially as they profess a desire to have a very streamlined set of essential tools without any fluff.

[antic604]

No, as far as I'm aware you can't get the same shapes with the other LFOs, the beat LFO has some sort of algorithm that creates strange shapes when you have the Rate & Offset in between 'standard' beat divisions, where it forces the shape to still cycle every e.g. 1 bar, but the shape morphs itself to accomodate this cycle length.

Well, then I've been underappreciating Beat LFO
Thanks for taking the time to post it

[Hez]

No worries

I do think Bitwig could push the beat LFO a little further to make it more distinct from the other two. I think one problem is that a lot of the settings just end up creating something very close to a regular LFO curve, so users don't realise that it's actually doing something different under the hood. It's an interesting concept for an LFO that isn't pushed quite far enough (yet).

[bronswerk]

Thanks for the update on Beat LFO, I didn't know that either.

[SB-SIX]

Yes there could be more lfo's if they are different enough. For instance a drawable lfo and a normal lfo. The beat lfo is not very distinct to me, why can't it be merged into 1 lfo that has the option to enable sync or not, like in many other devices?

Same with the tool. There is too much overlap in the meaning of the words gain and volume. If we make the parallel to eurorack, I don't think there is any module with both gain and volume. It's too confusing, people will grab the wrong knob all the time.

I don't mean to be disparaging, but have you actually used the Beat LFO much? It doesn't just sync to the beat, it generates strange rhythmic shapes that always repeat in sync with the tempo, depending on how you set the offset etc. It's actually pretty fun to use, though I'm never sure exactly what result I'm going to get

Fair point re: Eurorack modules and gain, although I'd perhaps make an analogy to hardware mixers instead here - every single hardware mixer I've ever used has had both a gain knob and a volume fader for each channel, i.e. they are clearly delineated functions that are intended to be used in conjunction with one another. In the Bitwig realm, having two knobs for volume also allows you to be more creative with modulation etc. - set some rhythmic modulation on the gain knob, and still have the option to fade this sound down to zero if required.

EDIT: Having said that, I personally would have implemented the volume knob as a 0 dB -> -inf dB control. I don't see the benefit in having +18dB on the volume 'fader' when you already have 36dB of gain on the gain knob, and it makes automation etc. messier if you're constantly having to make sure you go back up to 50% gain, instead of ramming the fader all the way back up to the top

Fair enough, wasn’t fully aware of beat lfo’s capabilities. The problem is indeed that it ends up like a beat synced normal lfo often because its not distinct enough
About the volume/gain. On a mixer, you will never confuse them because one is a fader and the other a knob. If the tool had a fader for volume (0 - 100%) and a knob for gain (bipolar) it would all make sense again.

[Hez]

Fair enough, wasn’t fully aware of beat lfo’s capabilities. The problem is indeed that it ends up like a beat synced normal lfo often because its not distinct enough
About the volume/gain. On a mixer, you will never confuse them because one is a fader and the other a knob. If the tool had a fader for volume (0 - 100%) and a knob for gain (bipolar) it would all make sense again.

Totally agree with you on the fader (capping at 0dB) vs. knob idea - clearer visual design, fits the use requirement that most users had (i.e. fade to zero, not an additional gain stage). I've just sent a request to the beta email.

[antic604]

If the tool had a fader for volume (0 - 100%) and a knob for gain (bipolar) it would all make sense again.

That's a simple but brilliant idea!