Should Bitwig take Ableton 11 as an example?

[lokanchung]

The Grid and Bitwig's modular backend, being able to create user GUI's for Grid structures and so on is a fundamental part of Bitwig's vision and has been so right from the start. They are not gonna stop developing it just cause you don't have any interest in it. Just like Ableton will not stop developing M4L just cause some users don't care about it.

Grid still has long way to go, and that would be a part of half-implementedness, I suppose.
Everyone here would understand grid can be powerful with more features, but for now it can't even do proper FM. It's pretty useless creating sounds that doesn't sound like eurorack, I end up with opening Serum or Phaseplant most of the time.

Grid should be their priority and there's nothing wrong about that, but workflow is equally important, and it doesn't have to be a big updates, small changes and refinements combined can actually be a huge improvement. For example, sampler won't load default preset when it's created by dragging a sample from the browser. Bar lines and beat lines are barely distinguishable. There are no shades outside of active clip region etc...

[apoclypse]

Like most things in Bitwig it feels half implemented.

Bitwig is obviously not for you. If most things feel half implemented to you, then it is never going to satisfy you and you should move on. Seriously... why spend your time hoping for it to be something it is not and never will be?

I'm not. But I still own a license for a year but this will be the last year I upgrade unless things change. I'm not a twiddle my thumbs waiting for a developer to change type person. I'm a vote with my wallet type person.

It's not a wrong criticism to say that a lot of things in Bitwig are only half implemented. Swing is barely there, they might as well not have tried it's so rudimentary. Not being able to quantize audio when you already have the warp markers workflow makes absolutely no sense. I already mentioned the EQ There are countless little things like this in the application which as a whole make the DAW feel half finished.

That being said my criticism of Bitwig is coming from someone who owns several DAWs and would like to the see the application succeed because it does have some things going for it but if all they want to do is be a niche product for sound design nerds to tinker with, who don't think workflow or feature completeness is important then that holds no interest for me and I can't go there with Bitwig.

[apoclypse]

MPE in Bitwig is top notch, for the above mentioned reasons, but just in general. I'm not sold on how Live approaches it yet, it's still in beta so credit to that, but right now it's buggy as well.

In-terms of workflow, imo Live's implementation is superior. It's not always about having the most features it's about how it's presented to the user. At least to me. IMO Live's MPE implementation is cleaner and more organized which makes me want to use it more. I very rarely if ever bother with MPE editing in Bitwig since I find the experience pretty clunky.

I like that Live's MPE has all the expression parameters visible at once, instead of having to switch between them like in Bitwig. So I agree that workflow is better in that regard.

Live's MPE implementation is still incomplete. Live is still not recording each notes midi channel. Since I don't have Live 11, I'm not sure exactly what they are doing but I assume it is like early Bitwig where Live auto rotates the midi channel. This is a drawback. Live is not recording all the data of what you play. So for example, I assume the Linnstrument mode of Channel per Row (like a guitar) wont work with Live's MPE. Likewise, sometimes I constrain the Linnstrument to a certain range of channels. This wont work in Live's implementation. Until Bitwig added full midi channel support, the MPE was somewhat crippled like it currently is in Live.

Besides that, Live's MPE is limited in another important way. Each Live instrument is limited to the modulation included with it. Simpler for example, you have to convert it to Sampler, add the MPE modulation, then convert it back to Simpler. If you want to change it, the process will be the same of having to convert back to Sampler. Speaking of tedious workflow. None of the modulators from M4L will work with MPE because they are global only, not per voice.

In comparison, the entire Bitwig modulation system is integrated and works with MPE. Every Bitwig instrument has unlimited per voice modulation and sophisticated MPE capability and all that is integrated with the voice stacking as well.

Right now Live 11 is in beta. Ableton may update all their instruments to take advantage of MPE. Either way like I said I have my own VSTs for MPE stuff I don't need the Simpler to be more than what is imo. Not that it wouldn't be nice to have.

My needs for MPE are simple. I play an MPE instrument (ROLI etc), I edit the data and that's as far as I need it to go. Whatever makes that easier is what I would consider better for my purposes.

[pdxindy]

Grid should be their priority and there's nothing wrong about that, but workflow is equally important, and it doesn't have to be a big updates, small changes and refinements combined can actually be a huge improvement.

You just described exactly what they have been doing...

[lokanchung]

Grid should be their priority and there's nothing wrong about that, but workflow is equally important, and it doesn't have to be a big updates, small changes and refinements combined can actually be a huge improvement.

You just described exactly what they have been doing...

True but maybe not. most of the time those small changes are not designed thoroughly and feels janky and random. New bugs and regressions are bonus. They don't realize that until people starts to complain.

[machinesworking]

While I appreciate what Moss is doing. His scripts are unsupported, generally work the way he thinks the hardware would work (which doesn't always coincide the way it should actually work imo) and I've run into issues getting him to respond to issues and requests. Understandable he's doing this on his own time. The onus imo for controller scripts should be on Bitwig. They should either hire someone to create the scripts or start reaching out to manufacturers.

I tried creating a script but I have nob real interest in learning Java and the Javascript engine is rudimentary and will probably get deprecated at some point since they are using a very old engine there.

Live has excellent hardware support due to its popularity. It uses Python as the scripting language and while there is no official API it's pretty straightforward to use imo. Either way if Novation/Arturia/NI releases a new piece of hardware tomorrow I can almost guarantee that they will have Ableton support right out of the box. Can't really say the same for Bitwig.

You’re all over the map here, Ableton’s baked unchangable scripts are better than Moss’s, Java is worse than Python but you don’t want to write scripts anyway. The Generic Flexi has no counterpart I know of in Live. Plus in terms of the global or project based controller assignments, man, I just really do not like working with that in Live, never did, probably never will.

Logic doesn't have the same kind of scripting capability (or at least its not exposed by Apple) but I can connect generic idi hardware into it and pretty much map everything inside of Logic. It's layer system can be pretty complex.

Yeah, it’s a PITA honestly, great when it works and a rabbit hole when it doesn’t.

In-terms of workflow, imo Live's implementation is superior. It's not always about having the most features it's about how it's presented to the user. At least to me. IMO Live's MPE implementation is cleaner and more organized which makes me want to use it more. I very rarely if ever bother with MPE editing in Bitwig since I find the experience pretty clunky.

I don’t find either way that bad. I appreciate Live’s lane approach, but I do not like the right click to get Live to recognize a plug in as an MPE device, it goes against Ableton’s original WYSIWYG philosophy, but since M4L that’s been eroding. I still see no way to set up multiple MPE devices with specific MIDI channels, and granted Logic is much worse this way with it’s lack or per port MIDI input.

Yeah this is an annoyance of Live. They need better key commands and/or an editor with more access to the software. I'd be surprised if they don't add this at some point since they seem to be more production workflow focused now.

Considering it’s been like this for 20 years, and it’s still the same, I highly doubt Live gets user assignable key commands, or even that many more of them. The philosophy is that keyboard shortcuts inhibit the UX for most people. It’s as likely to happen as SysEx, or allowing for the second window to be a MIDI editor. Ableton knows some people want those things, they don’t want them, it’s that simple really.
I love Live in many ways, but flatly, Ableton 100% are about the Steve Jobs concept of building a product that the customer didn’t know they wanted. It’s never going to become a complex multiple ways to skin a cat DAW like Cubase, Logic or DP, their approach is to give you what they consider to be the best way. You can either take it or leave it.
I don’t think Bitwig is that much different, but in some ways it is. The user assignable key commands, multiple ways to approach controller scripts are examples for good and bad if you so choose to judge.

[BobDog]

MPE in Bitwig is top notch, for the above mentioned reasons, but just in general. I'm not sold on how Live approaches it yet, it's still in beta so credit to that, but right now it's buggy as well.

In-terms of workflow, imo Live's implementation is superior. It's not always about having the most features it's about how it's presented to the user. At least to me. IMO Live's MPE implementation is cleaner and more organized which makes me want to use it more. I very rarely if ever bother with MPE editing in Bitwig since I find the experience pretty clunky.

I like that Live's MPE has all the expression parameters visible at once, instead of having to switch between them like in Bitwig. So I agree that workflow is better in that regard.

Live's MPE implementation is still incomplete. Live is still not recording each notes midi channel. Since I don't have Live 11, I'm not sure exactly what they are doing but I assume it is like early Bitwig where Live auto rotates the midi channel. This is a drawback. Live is not recording all the data of what you play. So for example, I assume the Linnstrument mode of Channel per Row (like a guitar) wont work with Live's MPE. Likewise, sometimes I constrain the Linnstrument to a certain range of channels. This wont work in Live's implementation. Until Bitwig added full midi channel support, the MPE was somewhat crippled like it currently is in Live.

Besides that, Live's MPE is limited in another important way. Each Live instrument is limited to the modulation included with it. Simpler for example, you have to convert it to Sampler, add the MPE modulation, then convert it back to Simpler. If you want to change it, the process will be the same of having to convert back to Sampler. Speaking of tedious workflow. None of the modulators from M4L will work with MPE because they are global only, not per voice.

In comparison, the entire Bitwig modulation system is integrated and works with MPE. Every Bitwig instrument has unlimited per voice modulation and sophisticated MPE capability and all that is integrated with the voice stacking as well.

Jeez, I expected Ableton to at least get the channel stuff right!

Waiting on a beta 11 invite here to test it...

[ReleaseCandidate]

I've just taken a look at Bitwig 1.0:

OUR VISION
Bitwig Studio is designed with a long-term vision in mind - that people can build their own instruments and effects right inside the software, share them with others effortlessly and collaborate in a room or over the internet in real-time.
* INTEGRATED MODULAR SYSTEM
All 54 devices found in Bitwig Studio were designed using a modular device creation environment which is integrated in the application. Unlike other software, this feature is at the heart of the code running Bitwig Studio. In the next major release, anyone with Bitwig Studio will have access to the integrated Modular System, enabling the modification of existing devices, or the creation and design of entirely new ones.
* NETWORK SYNC
Collaboration should be as simple as picking up your instrument and making music. We have developed a system that will allow you to do just that. No more complicated connections, no more falling out of sync, all you will need is two or more computers running Bitwig Studio. Multiple users can jam on the same document, and everything is captured in the document's arrangement.
* ONLINE COLLABORATION
Soon the ability to collaborate on projects in real-time will open from those working next to you, to your friends connected online around the world. Bitwig Studio will make it easy for you to work on ideas with others, wherever they might be. The multi-user online collaboration feature means music production over the internet. Multiple users can compose music in the same project from different locations, while Bitwig Studio keeps everything and everyone in sync.

https://web.archive.org/web/20140603092 ... oming.html

Hmm ...

That image of the internal modular system representation that looks like Reaktor nodes is here:
https://web.archive.org/web/20130806084 ... system.png

[liquidsound]

"Bitwig Studio will have access to the integrated Modular System,
<<enabling the modification of existing devices>>"

POLYMER reflects the last part of that statement and it could be the next direction when adding new instruments/effects.
I don't think it will be retroactive though.

[pdxindy]

Grid should be their priority and there's nothing wrong about that, but workflow is equally important, and it doesn't have to be a big updates, small changes and refinements combined can actually be a huge improvement.

You just described exactly what they have been doing...

True but maybe not. most of the time those small changes are not designed thoroughly and feels janky and random. New bugs and regressions are bonus. They don't realize that until people starts to complain.

True but maybe not? If you say it's true, that means it is true. Which of course it is. There have been lots of small workflow improvements since v3 was released (and before).

No, they realize it because people send in bug reports... which is the point of having betas and user feedback... and of course every single bit of complex software is exactly the same way. You speak as if Bitwig is some aberration in this regard and it isn't. Live 11 now has MPE support but it doesn't record even each notes midi channel. Studio One 5 added MPE support but it is also more of a stage one than a fully realized implementation. Software is often an iterative process until the feature is well developed. This is very common. Development just takes time.

[pdxindy]

Jeez, I expected Ableton to at least get the channel stuff right!

Waiting on a beta 11 invite here to test it...

Ableton never had midi channel support before now.

[ChrisDW]

All this discussion is great! We all know Bitwig developers read through a lot of these threads and the message is clear.

Hopefully they act on it and deliver.

[UltraByte]

bit hilarious that even asking about the integrity of the voting - which may be something everyone should be interested in, regardless their preference and if they value the outcome - gets downvoted.

it would be best if such voting (which is a gread idea imho) would be hosted by BWS at their homepage. First of only people with a license would be able to vote and second also the (i guess majority) part of BWS users that dont frequent KVR and may not care so much about special stuff such as the Grid would have to vote but have different preferences or usages.

Personally im OK with any of the given outcomes btw. BWS is already highly usable for me as production daw. I mix and finalize in Reaper or Harrison Mixbus. Heck i even still have my Live 10 Studio if i would really need it.
If anything the selections have to be clarified a bit more.

Like: While i would welcome BWS to adopt some features that Ableton happen to just have included with 11 (comping), and more bouncing options (doenst have to go full reaper) but bounce tracks directly, bounce multi-out instruments without work arounds,
but than
im also generally ok with BWS doing its own thing
but could also say
BWS is already great how it is (assuming anyway development would not stop).

-> In my view these 3 options should be elaborated a bit. Everyone can interpret quite a bit in them and in my case it would be even possible to agree on any of them depending on the interpretation or ones personal viewpoint and preferences.

[apoclypse]

You’re all over the map here, Ableton’s baked unchangable scripts are better than Moss’s, Java is worse than Python but you don’t want to write scripts anyway. The Generic Flexi has no counterpart I know of in Live. Plus in terms of the global or project based controller assignments, man, I just really do not like working with that in Live, never did, probably never will.

No I'm not. You are not reading what I wrote. I tried writing a script because I have no choice in Bitwig. I don't like the way my SLMK3 works in Bitwig. Ableton has plenty of already supplied by Ableton and hardware manufacturers scripts, including the SLMK3. I don't need to do any scripting but if I wanted to I still prefer Python to Java. Ableton doesn't have the Generic Flexi but I don't need the Generic Flexi when all of my controllers work in Ableton out of the box. In Bitwig it's a necessity.

Yeah, it’s a PITA honestly, great when it works and a rabbit hole when it doesn’t.

Yes but all in all I've been able to map even my oldest Axiom controller in Logic for year with no issues. It doesn't have the scripting logic or anything like that but if basic midi mapping is what you need it's great.

I don’t find either way that bad. I appreciate Live’s lane approach, but I do not like the right click to get Live to recognize a plug in as an MPE device, it goes against Ableton’s original WYSIWYG philosophy, but since M4L that’s been eroding. I still see no way to set up multiple MPE devices with specific MIDI channels, and granted Logic is much worse this way with it’s lack or per port MIDI input.

Again Live's instruments are not really a factor for me when it comes to MPE. I'm looking at the actual editing workflow. Not behavior with Live's own instruments. I don't really care about those since I won't use them. I barely use any of the Suites features other than maybe Operator every once in a while.

Considering it’s been like this for 20 years, and it’s still the same, I highly doubt Live gets user assignable key commands, or even that many more of them. The philosophy is that keyboard shortcuts inhibit the UX for most people. It’s as likely to happen as SysEx, or allowing for the second window to be a MIDI editor. Ableton knows some people want those things, they don’t want them, it’s that simple really.

There are a lot of things that people thought wouldn't happen in Live. But here we are and they've added comping. That's a feature request that has been asked for almost as long as customers have asked for keybindings. They didn't fix zoom until version 10, something asked for since at least version 4. They are not fast but they are starting to get it. Like I said Clip Launching etc is no longer novel. Like Bitwig, Ableton is also going to have to focus elsewhere. They seem to be focusing on much needed workflow features lately.

[nortle]

bit hilarious that even asking about the integrity of the voting - which may be something everyone should be interested in, regardless their preference and if they value the outcome - gets downvoted.

The survey was intended more as a vague impression. I think the thread posts are more important where every user makes himself and his viewpoint known.

And there it would be certainly helpful, if not the same people keep repeating their point of view page after page. It would respect the discussion and the opinion of others more.