Algoritm - FM synth for Reason Rack, EUR109

VST, AU, AAX, etc. plug-in Virtual Instruments discussion
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KVRAF
4009 posts since 22 Mar, 2009 from gent

Post Fri Feb 26, 2021 3:37 am

mholloway wrote:
Thu Feb 25, 2021 8:23 pm
briefcasemanx wrote:
Thu Feb 25, 2021 8:18 pm
Looks amazing. Kinda want to buy it just because I love the UI.

Can someone explain the adsr problem, Im not well versed in FM.

If someone who swears by them can post a patch that can ONLY be made with rate-level envelopes, I'm all ears....at present, I'm pretty convinced there's No Such Thing.
Here is just one example of a standard rate /level envelope on one operator directly to output .
Please post a screenshot of the same envelope with a standard ADSR
Image
And her is a sound example , operator 2:1 ratio
You will hear the modulation fade in(rise , then fade out (fall ) ..then again rise up until sustain phase and again fade out ..which is the release phase .
You can not do that with a standard adsr
It seems yo have not really explored level rates envelopes AT ALL
https://app.box.com/s/5ynpu3yi3dc7cq8sz24s9ax6av71e7w9
Always nice to disprove people with facts and actual examples instead of opinions :lol: ( which is why so many dislike me on the forum )
I rest my case :tu:
Eyeball exchanging
Soul calibrating ..frequencies

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KVRist
81 posts since 21 Jun, 2019

Post Fri Feb 26, 2021 4:46 am

What a beautiful sounding and well thought-out FM synth. Congratulations to the developers!
It instantly inspired me to write a new track and share with the community:

https://soundcloud.com/audiovoltage/mosaique

A basic, soothing ambient bed using two instances of Algoritm and one instance of Friktion.

KVRAF
1603 posts since 28 Sep, 2012

Post Fri Feb 26, 2021 5:05 am

Agree. I like nearly everything about the synth apart from the effects section, which for me is no big deal since most of the time I use my preferred effect plugins.

KVRist
460 posts since 15 Dec, 2012 from Waunakee, Wiscompton

Post Fri Feb 26, 2021 7:29 am

antic604 wrote:
Thu Feb 25, 2021 4:53 am
perpetual3 wrote:
Thu Feb 25, 2021 4:52 am
Rent to own! Nice.
That's been an option for at least 3 years...
There's quite a few things that are NOT available to rent-to-own. The newest Pattern Mutator player device is not, for example.

FWIW, I did an insta-rent-to-own on this. I've got Eurorack modules to buy, so $10 a month is perfect for the next few months.
Reason 10 | ABL3 | RE-303 | Eurorack modular | Roland Juno-106, JP-8000, & TR-606 | Moog Minimoog | SCI Prophet-600 | OB Matrix-1000 | Korg MS-20M | Arturia RackBrute 6U (x2) & DrumBrute Impact | Yamaha TX-81Z | RME Digiface USB

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KVRist
135 posts since 3 Dec, 2019

Post Fri Feb 26, 2021 7:38 am

do they have a rent to own option for reason? that's what reason+ should have been
I do experimental sound design and demos of plugins (no talking) on my youtube: https://www.youtube.com/databroth

I also sell presets/lfos/ and wavetabls on gumroad https://gumroad.com/databroth

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KVRist
229 posts since 29 Apr, 2019

Post Fri Feb 26, 2021 7:50 am

databroth wrote:
Fri Feb 26, 2021 7:38 am
do they have a rent to own option for reason? that's what reason+ should have been
or maybe have an additional payment plan for reason itself.


Will have to say that this alone is an amazing take on FM as I tend to leave FM synths alone since it takes forever to progam and I don't personally like synth that flood you with a trillion parameters (FM8)
I know that they are super powerful but seeing how fast it was to get a good result really sells it.
if for anything, Reason+ looks really good just for the synths and effects it has.
And before someone says rent to own, there's other synths I love from them that financially is easier for $20/mo

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KVRAF

Topic Starter

7947 posts since 4 Jan, 2017 from Warsaw, Poland

Post Fri Feb 26, 2021 8:04 am

DJMaytag wrote:
Fri Feb 26, 2021 7:29 am
There's quite a few things that are NOT available to rent-to-own. The newest Pattern Mutator player device is not, for example.
I never said everything is available as RtO.

Apparently there's some minimal price threshold to qualify for RtO, at least it used to be like that? I only used it once for Complex-1 and liked it so much that I paid the remaining amount in one go after I think 3 months or so :)
Music tech enthusiast.
DAW, VST & hardware hoarder.
My "music": https://soundcloud.com/antic604

KVRist
315 posts since 4 May, 2019

Post Fri Feb 26, 2021 11:21 am

aMUSEd wrote:
Fri Feb 26, 2021 1:26 am
Noumena wrote:
Thu Feb 25, 2021 7:01 pm
Suggestion to the devs -- throw us 8 macro knobs! If I had macro knobs available to use in the mod matrix with the presets set up with some of them pre-wired for some variation I think that this instrument would really sing. I know that I can set these up with a knob-RE and CV work on the back, but I think you see my point. Now that you have a lot of users interacting with your stuff with other DAWs, 8 macros is something that those users might find really attractive. I wish I had the same with Complex pretty much every time I use it.
Why not just use a Combinator?
So in-built macro knobs are better because with those on wired in and on the synth control panel.... *presets* tend to have them wired up, which makes each preset more flexible and expressive. It is certainly my opinion, but I think that macro control integration on a synth like this is better than “why not just ____” integrations... Lion, Phaseplant, Massive X, Pigments all have this and the way that they are used has added a great deal of value.

To see what I’m talking about go to any of the very cool presets for this synth and just start messing with the scale factor on the mod matrix while holding a chord or an arp. Adding macro controls would make this that much more immediate. Again, my two cents.

KVRist
68 posts since 31 Dec, 2005

Post Fri Feb 26, 2021 5:30 pm

I second this. 8 dedicated macro knobs with be a great addition to open this synthesizer up and make it accessible with a controller. Making the mod matrix come alive and allowing more dynamic interaction. Especially relevant for a FM synthesizer and for those who do not have or want the knowledge but just want to tweak and play it as an instrument.

KVRist
315 posts since 4 May, 2019

Post Fri Feb 26, 2021 6:02 pm

ok, I take it back -- I'm really intruiged with this synth. I was drawn back to it today and I have made a few patches that are stellar. I think this is a buy for me after all -- really good work.

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KVRAF

Topic Starter

7947 posts since 4 Jan, 2017 from Warsaw, Poland

Post Tue Mar 02, 2021 12:19 pm

The intro stream was just aired:

https://youtu.be/t9tAMBNC2pY
Music tech enthusiast.
DAW, VST & hardware hoarder.
My "music": https://soundcloud.com/antic604

KVRist
315 posts since 4 May, 2019

Post Tue Mar 02, 2021 8:09 pm

That was really eye opening. The "fade" frequency mode is serious magic.

KVRAF
1667 posts since 11 Jan, 2009 from Portland, OR, USA

Post Tue Mar 02, 2021 8:44 pm

gentleclockdivider wrote:
Fri Feb 26, 2021 3:37 am
mholloway wrote:
Thu Feb 25, 2021 8:23 pm
briefcasemanx wrote:
Thu Feb 25, 2021 8:18 pm
Looks amazing. Kinda want to buy it just because I love the UI.

Can someone explain the adsr problem, Im not well versed in FM.

If someone who swears by them can post a patch that can ONLY be made with rate-level envelopes, I'm all ears....at present, I'm pretty convinced there's No Such Thing.
Here is just one example of a standard rate /level envelope on one operator directly to output .
Please post a screenshot of the same envelope with a standard ADSR
Image
And her is a sound example , operator 2:1 ratio
You will hear the modulation fade in(rise , then fade out (fall ) ..then again rise up until sustain phase and again fade out ..which is the release phase .
You can not do that with a standard adsr
It seems yo have not really explored level rates envelopes AT ALL
https://app.box.com/s/5ynpu3yi3dc7cq8sz24s9ax6av71e7w9
Always nice to disprove people with facts and actual examples instead of opinions :lol: ( which is why so many dislike me on the forum )
I rest my case :tu:
I guess what I should have said is "if someone who swears by them can post a [GOOD] patch that can ONLY be made with rate-level envelopes, I'm all ears...I'm pretty convinced there's No Such Thing."

But, fair enough, that's not what I said, so you are "right". Please apply your new Badge to your Boy Scout Shirt and wear it with pride, you obviously need the affirmation.

I didn't express it well / accurately the first time around, but my point about rate-level is that I've never heard them used in a manner that was interesting / useful / exciting enough for me to conclude "I'd rather have that than standard ADSRs". I'm fully aware that an ADSR cannot make the same shapes that rate-level envelopes can, they are clearly different. What I'm not at all convinced of is that it really matters all that much. So you get one more decay-then-rise stage stuck in the middle before the sustain. I do not see this as a Sea Change of Sound Design. And when you look at how many FM synths skipped rate-level envelopes entirely, I never heard an outcry (other than from you and one, maybe two other dudes online) about how this is some substantial hit to our ability to program the synths.

It makes them a lot more complicated to program -- for most people (obviously not for an incredible human being like you, though). And my point is that the 'benefit' of that added complication is Very Weak Sauce, in my opinion. That's what I should have said from the start. Thanks for the facts, though, you're not wrong to point them out.
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KVRAF
4009 posts since 22 Mar, 2009 from gent

Post Wed Mar 03, 2021 5:21 am

I gave you a verry simple example of something that can not be done with standard adsr , and that was your initial post .
I could have gone all the way and provided a verry complex patch , but that was not the point .
Just reducing it to : 'I just see one decay -rise -fall stage 'is simplifying it ,it can matter a lot if you want to create evolving pads , especially when the envelopes are loopable like on the sy-tg range
It's not just for Fm , but basically every roland , yamaha fm-rompler synth from the nineties
And no , it does not make them a lot more complex to program , it literally takes one extra step to mimic a standard adsr , I'll leave it up to you to decipher which one :)
Eyeball exchanging
Soul calibrating ..frequencies

KVRist
315 posts since 4 May, 2019

Post Wed Mar 03, 2021 5:36 am

There are 9 operators and two MSEGs that can all act as primary, secondary envelopes here as well as modulators of modulators and be used in the mod matrix. In Yamaha FM an operators envelope cannot modulate another operators envelope, but here you can. I would venture to say that from an envelope perspective Algorithm is more than able to replicate rate level FM envelopes and actually able to do much much more than that. So I believe that this argument is a. Academic in this context and b. Implies that this synth is less capable than a DX7, envelope-wise, when it is far, far more capable. As in FAR. As someone that lived on a DX7 in the 80s I would have much rather had this in regard to flexibility and ease of use. I also feel like It’s a little disingenuous to say that Yamaha rate level envelopes are just as easy to program. Perhaps some find that to be so, but decades of users have spoken otherwise. I think that this implementation is more flexible and more engaging.
Last edited by Noumena on Wed Mar 03, 2021 6:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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