No thread for MusicDevelopments Syne?

[aMUSEd]

Syne v1.1 was released today with microtuning support!

Changes:

• Microtuning support: Scala (.SCL) and AnaMark (.TUN) files can be imported
• Note tunings can be edited under Settings / Tuning
• The tuning presets are stored in an editable text file
• 'Increase Slider Precision' setting added
• The detached editor windows are resizable
• Minor UI improvements
• Fixed: rare hanging notes and other bug fixes
• User guide updated

Syne is available at a 40% discount ($53) until April 20! Click for more info.

Indeed - does it support the new MTS-ESP system?

[aMUSEd]

There is only one area where Loom is better, in the sheer number of presets.
But as long as I can generate a complex wavetable for a single click, I don't find this a big issue. Yes, maybe the included presets in Syne are simple, most of them consist of 3-4 modules. I will add more evolving modern sounds. Syne has a heavily optimized rendering engine which has lots of potential, e.g. for physical modelling. It can serve as a foundation for other synthesizers.

Does Syne ship with some more advanced patches now? It does sound like it could benefit from a library of patches created by skilled sound designers. I do love how Loom's patches showcase what it is capable of in terms of sound design. I can't really agree with the view that being able to generate a complex wavetable with a single click, or for that matter resynthesize samples, is a substitute for skilled sound design. Its useful of course but IMHO for a modular plugin like this what is more useful is a library of learning resources on how to combine the modules available to create complex and musically usable sounds.

[musicdevelopments]

Indeed - does it support the new MTS-ESP system?

Not yet, but I received several requests, so it will be implemented soon.

Does Syne ship with some more advanced patches now? It does sound like it could benefit from a library of patches created by skilled sound designers.

There are no new presets yet. I am the only developer working on Syne, and had no time and resources to prepare more presets...

Thanks,
Attila

[WasteLand]

bought it! yes! yes! i had syne a long time on my radar, but i saw the sale and and demoed it again, now i get the workflow...
must learn it still, after one hour experimenting a small showcase;

https://soundcloud.com/user-873737123/t ... of-gravity

i must admit, that the presets that come with Syne, well... i know some, also not that known synths, specialized synths, that have almost no presets. sometimes it is better..

or show what it can do. even if this is very small piece, experimental, and very new to Syne, but not to Additive (no expert, but still, i can work with additive synths...).

perhaps someone can present another/better showcase.

i really like what it can do. patch from scratch, the partial editor empty, drawing partials... and some fun with time, filter, jitter, resonance (LFO...).

one patch already with 'morphing' two "partial grams'...

it is a pity that MPE isn't mentioned on the website. i will work with it with MPE, and also the internal modulation possibilities.

[musicdevelopments]

Hi WasteLand,

many thanks for your order, and your feedback!

Attila

[WasteLand]

Hi WasteLand,

many thanks for your order, and your feedback!

Attila

great synth, exploring it still, a lot of possibilies. no FM yet? or PM?
there seemed to be only one online preset... i never share my presets, because they are always the basics of a track, but this is very basic preset, with a very additive vibe, simple, effective, i think.

Basic Synes 03, especially when played with 2 notes, yes!, with quite a 'distance', more than an octave, you get a great full experience of how Syne can sound, in -i repeat- a very basic way.
or play it in another way... and tweak it.. 'creative commons'.

next patches will be with "add".. and more modulation, and more complex routing.

can't wait to work with it with MPE, to make presets for it, that can be, if have a good day..., great evolving, dynamic presets.

[musicdevelopments]

Hi WasteLand,

thanks for sharing this preset!
I also uploaded a new preset, which is a cymbal sound (optimized for note A2). Usually it is very difficult to synthesize a realistic cymbal sound for other synths but this is no challenge for Syne which can use different decay for each partial

Thanks!
Attila

[WasteLand]

Hi WasteLand,

thanks for sharing this preset!
I also uploaded a new preset, which is a cymbal sound (optimized for note A2). Usually it is very difficult to synthesize a realistic cymbal sound for other synths but this is no challenge for Syne which can use different decay for each partial

Thanks!
Attila

it is not a bad preset, but not, o well (my preset! to be clear). understanding more and more about Syne. already made more complex patches.

the inharmonics 'option' intrigues me, but sill finding my way. a lot is possible.

can you move modules?, it seems it can't. or i don't see it.

and will there be at any point in time be FM? not a priority yet for me, as i am working also with beta stuff, that is build for FM/additive (completely different then Syne, or completely).

the manual is a bit spartan... but i find my way...

i do more experimental stuff. more and more... it has a purpose, not only to be 'experimental'..

i have already more experimental stuff... for Syne...

when i make presets that are more 'general', i shall upload them.

as i explained i start with sounds, so if i upload a preset, i upload in way a 'track'. but it is nice to experiment, and make sounds that also others can use. i can learn from it.

still working mainly, with the partial editors, o yes, one wavetable now... didn't work that well.. 3 oscillators that weren't really into eachother.. (does use Syne, real sines, or does it use FFT?? i assume FFT, why? but for additive FFT is not mandotory, perhaps for the 'shapers' a different story..)

stupid question perhaps, but because the synclavier has different 'ratio's', the partials, aren't what you expect or the synclavier, has not the theoretical partials, i mean, what do i mean?
synclavier works with overtones, that are spread in another way.

Syne uses the standard ratio's (it isn't called ratio's), the fundamental is indeed the fundamental (which in synclavier is, but there is sine below it..), so 1, fundamental, 2 first even, 3 first odd, etc?

EDIT: harmonic intervals (overtones can be inharmonic). it seems that the fundamental is 0?
the begins the first harmonic with odd? 1?

o must make notes, but there is a standard for this.. calculating them.. and i see you can deviate from them..

so what was the question? 0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7 etc, even/odd, so the very basic (but very expressive and rich) calcultation/ratio? i assume, because it sounds like it...

EDIT: nice preset, Attila!, and i found the zoom function, indeed inharmonics! great! which i always thought is called; spectral...
great sound, and great showcase.. thanks!

(this post a bit confusing, i let my confusement present.. it isn't confusing, you have a fundamental and overtones, overtones can be harmonics (odd/even) in intervals, the precise notation i must also remember, i must always loop up. the fundamental starts at 0? or is that a sine beneath the fundamental at 1?)

[musicdevelopments]

Thanks for your thoughts, WasteLand!

can you move modules?, it seems it can't. or i don't see it.

You can move modules only by disconnecting and reconnecting them. I added this to my to-do list, to move them more conveniently.

and will there be at any point in time be FM?

Yes, that is planned for some time. Just like PWM, FM can be nicely implemented in additive synthesis.

the manual is a bit spartan... but i find my way...

Yes, but you don't really need a manual in order to use Syne

i do more experimental stuff. more and more... it has a purpose, not only to be 'experimental'..

i have already more experimental stuff... for Syne...

That is cool, and vital if you don't want to sound like everybody else does.

3 oscillators that weren't really into eachother..

When using spectral interpolation between waveforms, where the partials are interpolated, not the PCM waveform, the waveform may change in an unexpected way, so don't expect that the PCM waveforms themselves are interpolated (which is the poor man's interpolation).

(does use Syne, real sines, or does it use FFT?? i assume FFT, why? but for additive FFT is not mandotory, perhaps for the 'shapers' a different story..)

There is absolutely no FFT in Syne.

EDIT: harmonic intervals (overtones can be inharmonic). it seems that the fundamental is 0?
the begins the first harmonic with odd? 1?

The fundamental is 1, 2 is first even (2x fundamental), 3 is first odd (3x fundamental), etc.
If you want additional sines below the fundamental, those are 0.5 (half fundamental), 0.25 (quarter fundamental). 0 is not used at all, it would mean 0 times the fundamental.

Thanks,
Attila

[WasteLand]

Thanks for your thoughts, WasteLand!

3 oscillators that weren't really into eachother..

When using spectral interpolation between waveforms, where the partials are interpolated, not the PCM waveform, the waveform may change in an unexpected way, so don't expect that the PCM waveforms themselves are interpolated (which is the poor man's interpolation).

(does use Syne, real sines, or does it use FFT?? i assume FFT, why? but for additive FFT is not mandotory, perhaps for the 'shapers' a different story..)

There is absolutely no FFT in Syne.

EDIT: harmonic intervals (overtones can be inharmonic). it seems that the fundamental is 0?
the begins the first harmonic with odd? 1?

The fundamental is 1, 2 is first even (2x fundamental), 3 is first odd (3x fundamental), etc.
If you want additional sines below the fundamental, those are 0.5 (half fundamental), 0.25 (quarter fundamental). 0 is not used at all, it would mean 0 times the fundamental.

Thanks,
Attila

ppff, i am too lazy too quote well, about spectral interpolation, it is of course totally different, i heard it, it was just a test.. and i am used to abuse 'modules', to work with them for things they really can't handle, but a achieve strange effects, must explore it further in Syne.

ok, no FFT, was my guess too, i am not a developer, then it is beyond my capabilities to really understand what is under the hood, but isn't necessary. to understand. mmmh, maybe i have a general idea... not important...

and with 0, i am mathematical 0 (zero)... (but can program, or could...), i made a mistake, ok. didn't look closely enough. because the it started with 0, didn't zoom closely enough, also a too complex patch to see it wel..

so they represent the "normal" intervals of, 1 fundamental, 2,3,4 harmonic overtones.

to work with Syne, the manual is enough i agree... but still... o well i like experimenting, learning it myself. creating my own workflow.
the manual states for instance the adder, but not where you must click.... i am used to soft modulars... but still....

but moving modules, would be great addition (pun intended!), for fast workflow, make variants, or simply, trial/error, haha... but sometimes you make something, and you thing, no this isn't the way, so please, add (again pun intended) move...

and FM, would also be great. but enough to learn, to experience, with Syne, which is an additive/spectral synth.

i always say (always, since 5 or 6 months) spectral is the future!

(and additive, let's call it additive is great for granular recomposition, because people tend to forget granular was a way of composing... i learned only recently, but i studied it in depth, and yes, have thé granulars of course, crusher-x, for example.

Syne is the synth i like for additive, also my other additve synths, but i like it now, because just like crusher-x, and other granular 'processors', you are very knee deep into the partials.)

great information! this helps a lot to understand Syne, i hope also for others, to explore it more, what it can do. it can do quite a lot. o a new preset online, one that i will use myself, but for once i thought, why not. still very basic.

when i work more with Syne, own it now for a week or less, and didn't have much time, other projects needed attention, perhaps the first things i will ask, some workflow improvements..

when i really understand Syne, perhaps i have other wishes...

but i am quite satisfied, impressed, no reverb needed... o yes the haass effect, is at 50%, i didn't touch that yet.

too me, but i am nó expert, just enthusiastic 'student' (although my experiments seem to get attention... from experts..), Syne is the Crusher-X for additive/spectral. yes, crusher-x is expensive..., but fully worth it. and i have other granulars that have special approaches. i also own 5 or 6 additive synths.. i think... i won't count anymore...

and MPE!!!!!!!!!!! yeah... not listed as such yet, on the roger linn design page or roli page... i shall make the moves...

so, impressed already, and looking forward how you develop it further.

EDIT: about 0 again, that is why it seemed strange to me, but sometimes i work too fast, and don't see it, and sometimes i take days to get one detail right. i have strange learning curve, a quite s&h modulate curve...

[Tj Shredder]

the manual is a bit spartan... but i find my way...

Yes, but you don't really need a manual in order to use Syne

This is not true, to be precise, not true at all!
Unless you know it by heart which is true for you the developer!
What is good, is the inbuilt help system, absolutely, but it lacks some basic understanding of the architecture. For me the term additive synthesis is bound to different envelopes for different partials. I did not find them...
An explanation of the basic principles is essential to get inspired and to get better sounds out of it...
You invented some interesting ways to program that beast, but as it is innovative and new it certainly isn't intuitive on its own...
Better get someone else to write the manual, you know your baby too well...

One flaw in the modulation system is a deal breaker btw. especially for MPE. If I assign the sustain level of the envelope to channel pressure, I see the value moving, but the sound remains on the initial pressure level which is close to zero... Of course you can't control the release with release velocity as well... I would love to control the attack level with the velocity, but it is only controlling the complete level of a fixed envelope... I should be able to change any envelope parameter while the voice is playing...
The assignment of MPE controls to voices seems to be sometimes broken. I play two notes, and the third note sometimes doesn't bend, but sometimes it does...
I set the time for the decay in an envelope to 270ms, but it takes 10 seconds. I switch to write about that bug, go back and its suddenly as short as programmed... It seems it needs time to adjust things, as if it is a non-realtime engine and compiles it into a static sound with limited real-time modulation capabilities...???

I had a crash on opening the Wave Morpher window...

A lot of mysteries and overall pretty buggy... I hope it will get better...

[WasteLand]

the manual is a bit spartan... but i find my way...

Yes, but you don't really need a manual in order to use Syne

This is not true, to be precise, not true at all!
Unless you know it by heart which is true for you the developer!
What is good, is the inbuilt help system, absolutely, but it lacks some basic understanding of the architecture. For me the term additive synthesis is bound to different envelopes for different partials. I did not find them...
An explanation of the basic principles is essential to get inspired and to get better sounds out of it...
You invented some interesting ways to program that beast, but as it is innovative and new it certainly isn't intuitive on its own...
Better get someone else to write the manual, you know your baby too well...

One flaw in the modulation system is a deal breaker btw. especially for MPE. If I assign the sustain level of the envelope to channel pressure, I see the value moving, but the sound remains on the initial pressure level which is close to zero... Of course you can't control the release with release velocity as well... I would love to control the attack level with the velocity, but it is only controlling the complete level of a fixed envelope... I should be able to change any envelope parameter while the voice is playing...
The assignment of MPE controls to voices seems to be sometimes broken. I play two notes, and the third note sometimes doesn't bend, but sometimes it does...
I set the time for the decay in an envelope to 270ms, but it takes 10 seconds. I switch to write about that bug, go back and its suddenly as short as programmed... It seems it needs time to adjust things, as if it is a non-realtime engine and compiles it into a static sound with limited real-time modulation capabilities...???

I had a crash on opening the Wave Morpher window...

A lot of mysteries and overall pretty buggy... I hope it will get better...

because i own this program for not that long, my impression stays. a great synth.
i notice sometimes to a delay, in calculation. but when modulating, no probs.

didn't try MPE yet, can't comment on it.

can you by the way explain "For me the term additive synthesis is bound to different envelopes for different partials", of course i understand what you mean, in my experience, i have seen this comment before, perhaps it was you, no no, someone else.

it is an oversight at my side, and i am beta testing an additve oscillator, a module, direct contact with the developer, changed in a more modular way, on my advice (...), he knows his additive.
and we are discussing now additive, and his specifice implementation, so i learn, in a way already what i know, but i can incorperate it more.

envelopes per partial? doing things on partial level seems to be alway a good idea, even to go experimental; you can, i must look it up, because i can't mimic it yet, with the arsenal i have (that are not only synths, but also effects, or programs, many steps i take).

i quote, via google translate: "analyzed in real time and separated into Amp and Freq signals. (...) Both the amplitude and the frequency of the incoming signal can be 'stopped' separately. But also together at the same time."

"Manipulating time via jitter in a world where amplitude and time can be processed separately"

time manipulation of different aspects of (a) partial(s). and use them in seperately, it is Kyma, so... i can't really copy it, no Kyma, but understand the purpose. quite experimental, but that is my preference, nowadays. and there are alternatives to Kyma...

and i agree: "but it lacks some basic understanding of the architecture", although some things are very clear, but the flow chart, of the engine isn't clear..

i repeat, this is what i needed, and i get already results.

MPE is also very important for me, and developers indeed forget Release Velocity, some don't know even about the existence, it is midi spec 1.x... i didn't know until i had MPE controllers, and discovered later, in a soft modular, with a module that could check incoming midi message, i saw that my 'normal' keyboard also transmits Release Velocity.

i experienced no crashes, wave morpher opens normally (windows 10, 20H2, up to date, even with bad install of the graphics driver, i am too lazy to correct it, yet... on my other system, main system, in a way both 'main systems', but only one has everything connected).

a typical post from me, i must admit...

so i repeat the question for Tj Shredder; "For me the term additive synthesis is bound to different envelopes for different partials", can you elobarete?

but for me, Syne is still a discovery, i am too busy, and other reasons, when i have learned Syne in-depth, making some video's, o well. and there are people better suited for this than me, but Syne would benefit from someone that can make examples, make video's, and indeed extend the manual.

a one person-show is always problematic, i know, to keep up with documentation, while i wrote code, i always, explained in docs what i did, what i added or changed. with examples, because they were my tests, i used them as examples..

i repeat, i notice sometimes the recalculations, but it does not feel buggy (only that the partial editor, when i set it to 20, it shows up in the saved preset as 200... when i reload).

i will still compare to crusher-x, it is quite a niche product, it is very focused, which i like. (and of course i use other granulars and other additive synths, or synths with a additive generator/engine, or harmonic engine, like Pigments 3 now, or Blade 2, or Spectra Additve Resynthesizer (based upon the K5000, or build on that idead), or MSoundFactory, or even; Vital, or Vast Dynamics Vaporizer 2 in way... and CMI V, or Synclavier V...
or offline programs like Spectralayers Pro 7... or Cecilia.. and shall not mention the other steps i take, that mimic other additive synths, that you can still buy, but seem to be abandoned, enough spectral effects, that can do a lot..).

TL;DR, i know, i always write from my own personal perspective, i know, perhaps that is problematic sometimes, but that is the way how i must communicate... must?

i believe that Syne, that already has a lot, can be improved in a way, that a more experimental approach can be possible ánd a more accessible approach.

but in the mean time i am enjoy, what i make with Syne. it is the spectral/additive synth i hoped for, i have my wishes. but to articulate them clearly, that is another phase....

[Tj Shredder]

Don’t get me wrong, this synth is special and has an approach which is fresh new and innovative. But its a bit in an early beta state at best.
There is the decay object, which allows simplified envelopes per partial (just decay). I think that idea is brilliant, but very limited, one could have more than one parameter of an envelope be defined in the same way. What about a 4 stage envelope, with level and decays drawn like in the decay object?
Of course the Wave Morpher could be used for similar effects, but there you would not be able to modulate parts of it, its like a fixed wave table...

And another bug, sustain seems to be a hold, after a couple of seconds the sound stops...

This is all on a Mac Pro and Mojave...

[WasteLand]

Don’t get me wrong, this synth is special and has an approach which is fresh new and innovative. But its a bit in an early beta state at best.
There is the decay object, which allows simplified envelopes per partial (just decay). I think that idea is brilliant, but very limited, one could have more than one parameter of an envelope be defined in the same way. What about a 4 stage envelope, with level and decays drawn like in the decay object?
Of course the Wave Morpher could be used for similar effects, but there you would not be able to modulate parts of it, its like a fixed wave table...

And another bug, sustain seems to be a hold, after a couple of seconds the sound stops...

This is all on a Mac Pro and Mojave...

i didn't get you wrong, by the way. how you write, you can see that what to want to improve Syne, so, that is the spirit! and i want the same of course, this is an instrument i very like very much,and want more, and of course, that it performs without problems..

of course i know my envelopes, i was only wondering why, "For me the term additive synthesis is bound to different envelopes for different partials", the term is bound, that is something, that i never really encountered this bounding, in synths, theory. so i was more wondering about that phrasing, than the usefulness of envelopes per partial!

indeed the decay module, that i tested yesterday, in reaper, but in reaper Syne does not react well it seems, i used the computer keyboard by the way, will try it in my studio. in bitwig it reacted normally. so my 'testing' went wrong, because i was distracted. (see 2 paragraphs further..)

modulating per partial is a big wish for me. envelopes. yes! of course you can do it already, modulating per partial, simply the filter... but indeed the flow chart... does the filter modulate the 'end result' of for example the partial editor, or really per partial, i think the first. because you can add 2 partial editors to one filter.. i didn't try really the other 'Sources', i am a partial freak ( ).

and of course the decay module.

to split up per partial and have options, to use 2 of the properties of the partials (there are 3 always? frequency, amplitude, phase.) as audio/modulation. or other ideas... but perhaps the architecture isn't made for that, or can be adapted? if it is something interesting of course..

i had also the problem, i call it partial overflow, the patch went to 77k partials, i was doodling so.. but still.. in reaper it caused a lot of problems, not in bitwig, beside of course that the soundengine of Syne in standalone, and in these 2 DAW's choked, and had problems resetting itself, in bitwig it succeeded, in reaper hanging partials ......

(Syne reports, 34.000 partials/core, for my laptop, quite enough i think..)

in Crusher-X you can also overload, in some cases, there is a 'limiter' for one case, but not for all cases, it is designed to control everything in detail, so it is something you must consider, it is the freedom you get, and you most control it.

didn't use sustain yet.

i agree with you that this is a project in it is early stage, that was in way positive for me, to jump in to Syne.

Rapidcomposer is a product is see mentioned more here on KVR, didn't know what it was, do know now. for what i make, it will make things complicated for me, haha...

and i didn't notice that there is a special Forum for MusicDevelopments.... which is more about the other 'stuff', than Syne (a bit like FAW Circle 2...).

the coming week i have more time to work with it, and in my 'complete setup'.

we are in agreement that this synth is special. and in agreement that Syne already has a lot of potential, but unleashing it takes study... with not a lot of information... and that has more potential. and need some attention, MPE it seems, i shall test it myself, and other things..

so, great work, Attila!!

and perhaps don't forget, i may be wrong, that Syne is a niche product, of course you want to make it accessible, no probs of course, but i think it will be mainly bought by people, that really want dive in in each partial...

personally, if i want bread & butter stuff, i wouldn't by Syne. and personally, bread & butter stuff, to use Syne for it (i am repeating my way, with a slight perspective change..), is simply, how can i put it? overkill? of course you can also use Crusher-X for what is granular has become more known for.. also the developer does it.. but Crusher-X is still made for experiments, in the sense the control you get. detailed control..

my thoughts. and thanks for your response @Tj Shredder! (you write more clearly than me, who doesn't?? you have a lot of experience and knowledge. i do too, but less, and in a more strange way, more chaotic, or better: associative.. i am no expert, i am still learning a lot. but still, i can understand the code for an additive synth, i was surprised..)

[WasteLand]

For me the term additive synthesis is bound to different envelopes for different partials. I did not find them...

i have done my research, it is the famous K5000, and i got sidetracked by so many ideas, and experiments, that i didn't explore the Spectra Additive Resynthesizer in depth, but it can do DADSR per partial (256 max), it is based, or inspired by the K5000. it is also a quite impressive additive synth, the Spectra. i must go back to it, next to Syne. i did buy Spectra because of it is extensive possibilities, but at some point, o well. to have an arsenal, is to rediscover, and strangely, in my case, how more synths i have how deeper i get into the synth i already have, but there is a limit. me thinks i have reach the limit. (i always think that.)

so. that is the answer. the K5000...