Changes in IK Multimedia license transfer policy?

VST, AU, AAX, etc. plug-in Virtual Instruments discussion
KVRAF
3283 posts since 7 Aug, 2008

Post Mon Jun 14, 2021 11:51 am

Peter - IK Multimedia wrote:
Mon Jun 14, 2021 10:20 am
I don't recall this being a change, I just went to the EULA on our web site and searched. If this is different than you have seen in the past you might want to note that in your support ticket as I am unaware of any change. I also don't know what EULA you agreed to during the installation but I'm sure IK Support can help with that too if there is any clarification necessary.
This is just more of the run around garbage. You'll note that very page says that it was modified on Sept. 20, 2020. What changes were made then? (Yes, I've already asked support the same question).

But let's dig deeper on this implication that it's always been that way. The first post in this very thread (on Jan 31, 2019) asked
szurcio wrote:
Thu Jan 31, 2019 12:07 pm
Is it true that a serial can be transferred only once and then it becomes NFR?
If this is not a change, then all you had to say is "Yes. It's always been that way." Of course, it hasn't always been that way, but that's beside the point. But you said:
Peter - IK Multimedia wrote:
Thu Jan 31, 2019 1:25 pm
Interesting, could you please post or PM your ticket number so I can look into this?
But now, you imply that it's always been that way. Why couldn't you or Ryan give a straight answer to a straightforward question? We even gave you months (in this very thread) to "check into it." And yet you still never answered it with anything remotely approaching directness.

It hasn't alway been that way. Someone quoted the end user documentation in this very thread. At that point it only said:
agharta wrote:
Thu Nov 14, 2019 10:21 am

"Software Transfer. You may not transfer, license or sublicense your rights as Licensee of the software or any IK Multimedia product, as licensed to you under this agreement without prior written consent of the rights owner. The carrier on which the IK Multimedia product has been distributed may be transferred or otherwise made available to any third party only with the prior written consent of the rights owner and provided that (a) the original media and license(s) accompany the carrier and (b) the party transferring the media does not retain a copy of the media."
That same person wated a straightforward answer to their question in Nov. 2019. We still haven't cleared up this policy you claim hasn't changed and it'sdbeen 10 months since the first post of this thread at that point:
agharta wrote:
Thu Nov 14, 2019 10:21 am
Here's a simple question.
If I purchase a 2nd user license via an official license transfer, can I expect to be able to transfer it in the future?
The language you quoted has aboslutely been added and the policy is not what it was before. If indeed it's always been that way, then why couldn't the two IK reps actually just answer the question?

For the life of me, I cannot understand why IK deals with customers this way. Their forum and interactions on third-party forums are just run around after run around. Evading questions. Carefully couching answes. Telling people to "Contact support" usually in the context of trying to shut down discussion of a problem so it can be handled out of sight.

It is genuinely a terrible way to treat customers and potential customers. There are plenty of companies that have policies that I don't agree with, but they at least don't hide their policies and then lie when they change them. Why alienate people so unnecessarily? So bizarre.

KVRAF
3283 posts since 7 Aug, 2008

Post Mon Jun 14, 2021 11:54 am

Echoes in the Attic wrote:
Mon Jun 14, 2021 11:48 am
imrae wrote:
Mon Jun 14, 2021 11:46 am
Peter - IK Multimedia wrote:
Mon Jun 14, 2021 9:13 am
jsp1979 wrote:
Mon Jun 14, 2021 7:26 am
The only thing I'm interested in now is where is this policy spelled out in the license agreements and/or on the website?
https://www.ikmultimedia.com/legal/inde ... -agreement
4.5 Software Transfer

You may transfer your rights as Licensee of the software or any IK Multimedia product, as licensed to you under this agreement only with purchasing a license transfer on IK Multimedia official website. The above-mentioned transfer license can be combined with a single “IK Multimedia Product”, and just only once.
I don't think that's what this paragraph means? It says that the transfer license can be used once (i.e. for one transaction), not that "the software" becomes NFR.
Oh yeah you are probably right. That makes more sense. I didn't think IK product became NFR.
If you get an IK license transferred from someone else's to your account, it absolutely does become NFR. Well, it does now apparently.

And IK claims it's always been that way. From my support ticket:
Hello [my name]

Thanks for your patience while we got back to you.

It has always been that way.

When a license is transferred, the value by default is set to $0, in which is in the same categories as NFR's.

Yet the two reps couldn't provide an answer to the question over the course of years. And when I contacted the support team a year or so to get answer, they gave the same sort of mealy-mouthed, don't actually answer the question response that we got here.

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KVRAF
2715 posts since 5 Dec, 2003 from Harlan's World

Post Mon Jun 14, 2021 12:25 pm

This is so disgusting. I have been an IK customer for more than 15 years. I keep wanting new IK stuff but their customer treatment has made me consider dropping them. I’m very happy with the Axe IO interface, but I can not transfer the software that came with it to a new owner if I want to sell the hardware. This is not mentioned anywhere when you buy it.

I want to upgrade to AT5 Max but frankly I am tired of their anti consumer nonsense.
My Soundcloud Too many pieces of music finish far too long after the end. - Stravinsky

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KVRAF
7329 posts since 20 Oct, 2009

Post Mon Jun 14, 2021 12:51 pm

Two IK reps provided you the EULA on our web site and who you should contact if that didn't clarify your question. Sorry if that wasn't satisfactory for you. I'm glad you have the answer to your question, sorry that it isn't what you would like to hear, I can relay that sentiment. Thanks.

Here and any other third-party forums aren't the best medium for getting technical support, legal information that isn't specifically stated in the available area of our web site, etc.
EXPOSED (as sounding ******* fantastic!)
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KVRAF
7329 posts since 20 Oct, 2009

Post Mon Jun 14, 2021 12:55 pm

Also, our policies aren't hidden. They are available on our web site, always have been. If you need clarification on any of that information, please use the contact methods also available on the web site.
EXPOSED (as sounding ******* fantastic!)
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KVRAF
7329 posts since 20 Oct, 2009

Post Mon Jun 14, 2021 1:01 pm

And finally, you are reading into my post about alleged "implications", I am not notified every time something changes on our web site. Nothing more than that. I think the fact that you've read so much into what I wrote might indicate why I'll leave you to the official means of contact and the legal section of the web site for the information you request.
EXPOSED (as sounding ******* fantastic!)
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KVRAF
3283 posts since 7 Aug, 2008

Post Mon Jun 14, 2021 1:20 pm

Peter - IK Multimedia wrote:
Mon Jun 14, 2021 12:55 pm
Also, our policies aren't hidden. They are available on our web site, always have been. If you need clarification on any of that information, please use the contact methods also available on the web site.
This policy was not on your website before. That's the point of this whole thread. If it were so obvious to find it, then why did it take you and Ryan months to come back with a non-answer?

Yes, at the start of this thread, IK's policies were hidden.

KVRAF
3283 posts since 7 Aug, 2008

Post Mon Jun 14, 2021 1:23 pm

Peter - IK Multimedia wrote:
Mon Jun 14, 2021 12:51 pm
Two IK reps provided you the EULA on our web site and who you should contact if that didn't clarify your question. Sorry if that wasn't satisfactory for you.
Of course, it wasn't satisfactory, because it didn't answer the question. It's incredibly unsatisfactory for a company to change their EULA and not inform customers about it. It's incredibly unsatisfactory when a direct "yes/no" question is asked, the the two reps don't answer especially when the question is about something as fundamental as license terms.

Having a copy of the EULA now is not helpful. The EULA on the site didn't say that back when this question was asked. This language is NEW.

As you always suggest, I have been in contact with support and they do not provide any useful information. They give the same sort of non-answers. I asked what changes were made in the Sept. 2020 update to the EULA or to obtain a copy of the ealier EULA.

This is what I got:
Hello [my name]
Thanks for your patience while we got back to you.

We do not have a prior copy to provide at this time. As stated, this policy has been updated as of September of 2020. All users have abided by this policy.
I said that I did not agree with how it was handled. I also have no idea what the last sentence of the last response means.
Hello [my name],

Thanks for your patience while we got back to you.

Do understand this is a circumstance beyond any of our personal control.

I apologize if you do not agree with these policies. I hope you have a good rest of your day.
That was helpful wasn't it? "I can't provide you with the old EULA. I cannot tell you what's changed." However, they did tell me that:
Hello [my name]

It has always been that way."
But, of coruse, it hasn't. I have no other avenues to get answers on when the policy change.

That is terrible customer service.

KVRAF
3283 posts since 7 Aug, 2008

Post Mon Jun 14, 2021 1:39 pm

Peter - IK Multimedia wrote:
Mon Jun 14, 2021 1:01 pm
And finally, you are reading into my post about alleged "implications", I am not notified every time something changes on our web site. Nothing more than that. I think the fact that you've read so much into what I wrote might indicate why I'll leave you to the official means of contact and the legal section of the web site for the information you request.
Then there's the parting shot at me. I use the word imply when I want to paraphrase what was said rather than doing a direct quote. You implied it's always been that way by not acknowledging the change and IK support told me it's always been that way. This post reminds me of the guy on Youtube who baits scammers via email, and the way he tries to keep them on the hook is to ignore the obvious questions and focus on some minute detail. It only serves to derail from the main point.

No one expects you to know about every website change. You should know the license transfer policy of the company you represent. You or the company you represent should be able to give straightforward answers about license terms. Those are not unreasonable requests. They way you've written to me and others in this thread makes it seems like we're the problems for wanting to get clarity on this or idiots who just can't read the EULA.

Either IK Multimedia changed their policy without warning or the policy has not changed and their representatives and support were unwilling to state the policy with any clarity over the course of, well, a couple of years.

I believe it was the former of those two, and I just wish IK would state, "We changed the policy on <date>" and then Peter, you can say, "They didn't let me know about it first but that's the policy now." And then I'd at least feel like my questions were addressed.

It is actually ok for a company rep to say, "whoops...our bad" sometimes rather than digging in. For some reason, so many responses in this thread just seem disrepectful to people who just want clarity. I've bought from companies whose products become NFR. It's not a deal breaker, but poor customer treatment is.

As noted, I've contacted support and they provided no helpful information and have essentially closed the book on my request. IK does not have any avenue for me to get the information I've requested.

This has just been unnecessarily frustrating when there's no reason it had to be.

KVRAF
22326 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from not here

Post Mon Jun 14, 2021 1:39 pm

IK can afford to have a support rep in here as opposed to this rank marketing guy, but no. But when they have responded to me here it was worse. 0%
I would honestly love to offload a few of the things I'm not likely to use, but it's worth it just to suck it up and forget about it because it means I don't have to contact anyone there, which was never a happy experience. A number of vendors in my experience - leave alone the COVID situation - have probably equally poor support channels but IMO not so much any that're actually worse. None of what I've experienced and had to get support for occurs elsewhere is the whole thing for me.
Last edited by jancivil on Mon Jun 14, 2021 1:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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KVRAF
2715 posts since 5 Dec, 2003 from Harlan's World

Post Mon Jun 14, 2021 1:43 pm

Peter - IK Multimedia wrote:
Mon Jun 14, 2021 12:55 pm
Also, our policies aren't hidden. They are available on our web site, always have been. If you need clarification on any of that information, please use the contact methods also available on the web site.
When you walk into a store and pick up, say, the Axe I/O, at which point is the user informed about the NFR policy for the software part of the package?

And if they buy it from your website, when are they informed about the same? https://www.ikmultimedia.com/products/axeio/ It says you get Amplitube, but not that you can’t transfer it.

Not even the clickable «legal detail» mentions this.

This is definitely a «hidden policy».

I feel scammed because of it.
My Soundcloud Too many pieces of music finish far too long after the end. - Stravinsky

KVRist
216 posts since 12 May, 2011 from Italy

Post Mon Jun 14, 2021 1:54 pm

jsp1979 wrote:
Mon Jun 14, 2021 9:43 am
JohnPativens wrote:
Mon Jun 14, 2021 9:16 am
jsp1979 wrote:
Mon Jun 14, 2021 7:25 am
To reiterate, exactly what was clear was happening did happen: Transferred IK licenses cannot be transferred again.
They do become NFR once transfered then?

EDIT: Yes :lol:
Of course it is. We all knew that's what the policy was going toward from the first post in this thread, but if you read through the whole thing, it's like trying to pin down a politicians to actually answer the question that's asked. Users just want to know what the policy is and what changes have been made.

Why in the world make it so very difficult to get information on what is an important part of a software license? Honestly, can anyone read back through this thread and say that the IK reps made any reasonable attempt to answer the questions?

And IK now joins the short list of companies that charge you for a license fee for transfer AND make the product NFR.
Actually, like other members said, those words might be read in two ways at least. Saying you have to buy a license transfer which can be used only once, doesn't imply another token can't be bought for that license. Is the token that can be used only once. If we read it this way, nothing changed since the first post of this thread (meaning second transfers have become arbitrary).

A couple years ago I bought an IK license on here and immediately noticed the missing transfer button under that item on my user area. A few days later I bought a bigger bundle on their shop and their support team agreed to manually remove that double license I previously bought (which I then sold on here specifying it would become NFR).
So yes, they will decide case by case. In that sense, nothing changed I guess.

It all changed the day the big red transfer button disappeared though, that's for sure! :D

KVRAF
1729 posts since 2 Jul, 2010

Post Mon Jun 14, 2021 10:13 pm

Peter - IK Multimedia wrote:
Mon Jun 14, 2021 12:51 pm
Here and any other third-party forums aren't the best medium for getting technical support, legal information that isn't specifically stated in the available area of our web site, etc.
What on earth...

Look, license transfer policies of other developers are discussed here the whole time. It is a simple piece of information which should be well-known to consumers when they discuss and plan plugin purchases. It's very important to buy/sell threads. It does not lead to legal trouble or strange edge-cases because usually the policies are clear and simple. The "vendors allowing license transfer" thread is a useful community resource.

In the case of IK, this community is still confused after two years and seven pages because it is not clear, some information has only come from individual interactions, and you keep referring us to ambiguous documents. It should not be difficult for you to answer this question about something that impacts the value of your products.

You recommend that people get in touch individually, but the whole issue here is that people's individual support messages don't seem to be consistent with history or with public statements.

KVRian
836 posts since 28 Jan, 2008

Post Mon Jun 14, 2021 10:49 pm

Oh boy. It seems like this has happened more than once before with IK. I remember all the changes to Jam Points and whatnot. But I feel like this isn't the first time they've changed their license transfer policy.

KVRian
945 posts since 10 Jan, 2018

Post Tue Jun 15, 2021 1:32 am

I have sold all my IKM hardware and software and have no interest in using any of their stuff again, even the stuff they give away.
I am doing the same with Waves also.
Fed up of the anti-consumer nonsense from these companies.

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