What drives you crazy in Bitwig?

[_leras]

How do you do that? drag the little slope things above the A D S R? if so that's great - and also annoyingly hidden!

I'll have a crack at trying it in the grid - sounds like it could be really fun!

Yup, the little slope things. They are modulatable also.

In the Grid, you can use any of the envelopes, trigger them as you wish, add any filter, etc.

Thanks that is gold! I just didn't realise the envelope curves were there!

I'm sure I've missed quite a few other things.

[_leras]

Did you actually finish tracks in other DAWs?

Yes, in Ableton and Reason.

Maybe in Bitwig you just need to consciously bounce to audio more often...

[pdxindy]

Did you actually finish tracks in other DAWs?

Yes, in Ableton and Reason.

Hey, if uninstalling Bitwig means you are now finishing tracks in Live and Reason it is so worth it!

[pdxindy]

Thanks that is gold! I just didn't realise the envelope curves were there!

I'm sure I've missed quite a few other things.

I still discover things... really? how did I not find/know that?

[machinesworking]

Why did you uninstall it?

Honestly, since early 2018 when I first installed it I haven't finished a single track, despite having few dozens of ones that are 1/2 - 2/3 ready... I think I just get exhausted with all the options Bitwig gives (for my music & workflow). In some way it makes it easy for me to never finish anything, because I can endlessly tweak things and not commit. In contrast Reason's the opposite - it's incredibly flexible too, but things very quickly get super complex, confusing and fiddly to edit anymore, so I have to let go and move on to next sound, sequence, etc.

I know it's stupid, but that's my experience.

That's funny, I'm old school writing wise, I generally generate a melody, beat or found sound then attempt to write a song around it. My problem is I always first attempt to write a song in a DAW when auditioning it, then learn to use the program by doing so, this leads to a few songs in Reaper, a few in Bitwig, and Logic, when most of my work has been in DP and Live. I end up liking them all for various reasons, and it dawns on me that I waste time learning a half dozen workflows instead of knowing DP or Live master trainer level. Although I'm near there with DP.

I end up seeing the logic in every workflow, so I end up wishing Live wasn't such a slug to navigate which if I went back would raise it's ugly head again, I'm not a fan of subwindows for MIDI editing, so Ableton's flat refusal to have a full screen MIDI editor is may main gripe with Live. Plus here at least it's less efficient than Bitwig, spikes the CPU more often. Just a key command for full screen MIDI editing would bring me back to Live full time (mostly).

[antic604]

...so Ableton's flat refusal to have a full screen MIDI editor is may main gripe with Live. Plus here at least it's less efficient than Bitwig, spikes the CPU more often. Just a key command for full screen MIDI editing would bring me back to Live full time (mostly).

Really? Just drag the divider all the way up, save that in your template and Shift+Tab will always switch to "full screen" MIDI editor.

[pdxindy]

I end up seeing the logic in every workflow, so I end up wishing Live wasn't such a slug to navigate which if I went back would raise it's ugly head again, I'm not a fan of subwindows for MIDI editing, so Ableton's flat refusal to have a full screen MIDI editor is may main gripe with Live. Plus here at least it's less efficient than Bitwig, spikes the CPU more often. Just a key command for full screen MIDI editing would bring me back to Live full time (mostly).

I used Live for a bunch of years so I've held a soft spot for it... kept it up to date even though I have not installed it or used it in a few years now. So decided to sell Live.

It doesn't matter to me what features DAW A, B, or C adds at this point. My needs are relatively simple and Bitwig works well enough for me. It is not an impediment for my music creation. Thinking about different DAW's, keeping up to date with them and wishing for this or that feature takes more time and mental energy than just getting to work with one DAW and dealing contentedly with whatever limitations it might have.

[machinesworking]

...so Ableton's flat refusal to have a full screen MIDI editor is may main gripe with Live. Plus here at least it's less efficient than Bitwig, spikes the CPU more often. Just a key command for full screen MIDI editing would bring me back to Live full time (mostly).

Really? Just drag the divider all the way up, save that in your template and Shift+Tab will always switch to "full screen" MIDI editor.

Workarounds aren't optimal, and recognize the archetype that this back and forth is.

Even better, Shift Tab in Bitwig calls up an actual MIDI editor. Plus, IMO they really should have made a full screen MIDI editor as part of the dual monitor implementation they introduced, but they didn't.

In general my biggest complaint over the years with Live is it's anti keyboard shortcut, mouse based UX. I get why they do it, it's easy to learn click drag, and complicated to learn DAWs like Cubase, Logic and DP when you start getting into using key commands to speed up workflow. Ableton don't care about that concept at all IMO (speeding up a workflow), it's all about a WYSIWYG type approach. Some of that I love, the arrow keys are used elegantly in Live, and their control surface support was top notch years before anyone else figured it out.
In general though, it always has felt like I'm an awkward fit for Live, and I've used it since version 3. When Ableton announced Max 4 Live it cemented a combination of super dumbed down one screen interface elements to basically an object oriented programming language with Max. So all of a sudden it's not aimed at end user computer people like me really. I don't know any code to speak of, I can troubleshoot a mac or windows computer, but I don't work in IT during the day and go home to Live to relax, and if it can't do something I want I can whip it up in Max.

Anyway we're supposed to be bagging on Bitwig here, but IMO if there's anything to complain about with Live it's the tinkerer UX, and workarounds to get full screen MIDI editing fit right into this.

[machinesworking]

It doesn't matter to me what features DAW A, B, or C adds at this point. My needs are relatively simple and Bitwig works well enough for me. It is not an impediment for my music creation. Thinking about different DAW's, keeping up to date with them and wishing for this or that feature takes more time and mental energy than just getting to work with one DAW and dealing contentedly with whatever limitations it might have.

For sure, I have three different areas I want to work on with DAWs though, film scoring, electronic music, and my studio setup.

I've always worked with two DAWs, since getting Reason 1.0 as a massive for the time collection of virtual instruments that didn't crash rewired into DP. Later Logic and Live, then DP and Live. Mostly I've always seen a massive difference between the focus of DAWs like Live, Bitwig, FL Studio and Reason, VS Logic, Cubase, Reaper, DP, Pro Tools etc.

IMO there's good reason to keep a DAW around that has massive amounts of features like DP, Logic etc. Let's face it, Bitwig isn't ever going to be the best choice for recording a full band, editing audio, SysEx NRPN support, Articulation mapping for orchestral etc. instruments, video and film scoring, scoring in general. It's goofy to some of you maybe but DP sends tuning commands to hardware synths for instance.

OTOH those DAWs are not as fun to work in for simpler arrangements, immediate gratification isn't a thing really, it's more about templates. Bitwig and Live feel a lot more like working with a sampler and a hardware sequencer. They also flatly do clip type sequencing much much better than DP or Logic.

I totally understand sticking with a single DAW, but I'll probably never use less than two. I love Bitwig, but I feel that music is moving more and more towards a full experience, MTV died years ago, but Youtube has definitely created an environment for a whole new generation of music videos. Almost every new act I've gotten into is through youtube. This gets us back on topic, it drives me crazy that Bitwig isn't focused on video at all. Between DP and Live, you have nearly every possible scenario past Final Cut or Premier.

[pdxindy]

IMO there's good reason to keep a DAW around that has massive amounts of features like DP, Logic etc. Let's face it, Bitwig isn't ever going to be the best choice for recording a full band, editing audio, SysEx NRPN support, Articulation mapping for orchestral etc. instruments, video and film scoring, scoring in general. It's goofy to some of you maybe but DP sends tuning commands to hardware synths for instance.

OTOH those DAWs are not as fun to work in for simpler arrangements, immediate gratification isn't a thing really, it's more about templates. Bitwig and Live feel a lot more like working with a sampler and a hardware sequencer. They also flatly do clip type sequencing much much better than DP or Logic.

I totally understand sticking with a single DAW, but I'll probably never use less than two. I love Bitwig, but I feel that music is moving more and more towards a full experience, MTV died years ago, but Youtube has definitely created an environment for a whole new generation of music videos. Almost every new act I've gotten into is through youtube. This gets us back on topic, it drives me crazy that Bitwig isn't focused on video at all. Between DP and Live, you have nearly every possible scenario past Final Cut or Premier.

For sure... various people have reasons to use more than one DAW.

I'm never gonna record a full band... used to record some friends who play out and also done plenty of audio interviews and audio/video recording of speaker panels and talks. I have a Zoom F8 for that.

I don't need sysex. It is no problem for me to manually choose a preset on a hardware synth. I'm not in a production environment and I have no need to hurry.

Seems to me lots of hobbyists get caught up in a production mindset when it is not necessary. Any DAW today can get from point A to point B in most cases. If I had to score a documentary and use Bitwig, I can do it just fine. It is not that it cannot be done, but it would be slower than with a DAW designed for that task (assuming familiarity with that DAW). IMO, speed is overrated and not that pertinent to most hobbyists.

Music may be moving towards a full experience... but I think the visual part is boring. Music is better without visuals... unless the visual is being in a live venue and watching skilled musicians play. One of the beautiful aspects of music is it lets people fill in an internal visual with their own imagination. Same reason many people like books.

And back on topic... I'm fine that the Bitwig devs have so far ignored video. Don't mind if they continue to do so for another year or two. Seems inevitable that they will address video at some point.

[machinesworking]

For sure... various people have reasons to use more than one DAW.

For sure, I can't really get rid of Live even if I stick with Bitwig, I've got dozens of songs in Live, and a few people I collaborate with that use it.

I don't need sysex. It is no problem for me to manually choose a preset on a hardware synth. I'm not in a production environment and I have no need to hurry.

For me SysEx is about storing a sound directly into the project. In DP you can set up a sequence specifically to tune and load the patch from the hardware. I've got songs from years ago I would love to work on now where the patch is long gone.

Seems to me lots of hobbyists get caught up in a production mindset when it is not necessary. Any DAW today can get from point A to point B in most cases. If I had to score a documentary and use Bitwig, I can do it just fine. It is not that it cannot be done, but it would be slower than with a DAW designed for that task (assuming familiarity with that DAW). IMO, speed is overrated and not that pertinent to most hobbyists.

Depends. Also I get it this is a computer electronic musician thing, but I've only played in one band that was successful to some degree, but after that I didn't become a hobbyist, I decided to make music that a much much smaller audience would like, because that's the music I love. It's not hobbyist music because it's not making millions off of teenage girls and boys, underground music may be more pure than the commercial stuff, so I take umbrage at the hobbyist label.

I literally have asked Genesis P Orrige why he lost his edge, and argued with Chris Cornell about why I thought the Black Crows and Lennie Kravitz (bands he loved) were terrible derivative rehash pop. It's not a hobby to me, it's art, and it's obvious these days that making it your job means compromising the art of it.

Music may be moving towards a full experience... but I think the visual part is boring. Music is better without visuals... unless the visual is being in a live venue and watching skilled musicians play. One of the beautiful aspects of music is it lets people fill in an internal visual with their own imagination. Same reason many people like books.

I don't agree. Just like movies and books though, music videos are mainly garbage. There are absolutely great videos though, in the past, pretty much anything by Devo or the Residents for instance. Even to this day. If you can handle darker material Skynd and I3PEAK both make fantastic videos.

And back on topic... I'm fine that the Bitwig devs have so far ignored video. Don't mind if they continue to do so for another year or two. Seems inevitable that they will address video at some point.

Yeah I don't doubt it, it's up to them how they approach it, but I would bet they take it more in the Jitter / Max direction like Live than the every film scoring trick in the book approach of DP.

I literally jumped on Bitwig chasing a feature set though, it was Bitwigs MPE support that had me look into it for the third time. So waiting around for arguably a bigger feature like video, not sure. Haven't cemented my decision between Live and Bitwig yet. I did that with DP when 11 came out, bought the DP specific articulation set from Babylon waves. I Don't particularly like how Logic does it, so that keeps me in DP.

[antic604]

Workarounds aren't optimal, and recognize the archetype that this back and forth is.

Even better, Shift Tab in Bitwig calls up an actual MIDI editor. Plus, IMO they really should have made a full screen MIDI editor as part of the dual monitor implementation they introduced, but they didn't.

Right, it's not an actual separate screen like in Bitwig, but it works just fine for me on a laptop and once you set it up in template it's just there, so not much of a workaround if it's one-off

[machinesworking]

Workarounds aren't optimal, and recognize the archetype that this back and forth is.

Even better, Shift Tab in Bitwig calls up an actual MIDI editor. Plus, IMO they really should have made a full screen MIDI editor as part of the dual monitor implementation they introduced, but they didn't.

Right, it's not an actual separate screen like in Bitwig, but it works just fine for me on a laptop and once you set it up in template it's just there, so not much of a workaround if it's one-off

There are plenty of reasons to have to drag the piano roll subwindow back down, IMO it's a workaround not a one-off. Get that it doesn't bother you, but I don't like it, no sir.

Rewire I believe is messing with Live 10 right now, crashing during plug in evaluation over and over with 2-4 pop ups about rewire already being in use, which it isn't..

[pdxindy]

Depends. Also I get it this is a computer electronic musician thing, but I've only played in one band that was successful to some degree, but after that I didn't become a hobbyist, I decided to make music that a much much smaller audience would like, because that's the music I love. It's not hobbyist music because it's not making millions off of teenage girls and boys, underground music may be more pure than the commercial stuff, so I take umbrage at the hobbyist label.

I meant hobbyist in the sense that one is on ones own time and not in a production environment or having to meet other peoples timelines. It is not meant as a comment on how important music is to someone or how dedicated they are to the art. I don't personally consider the term at all negative and it was the only one that came to mind to describe what I meant. Got a more suitable word to use?

[machinesworking]

I meant hobbyist in the sense that one is on ones own time and not in a production environment or having to meet other peoples timelines. It is not meant as a comment on how important music is to someone or how dedicated they are to the art. I don't personally consider the term at all negative and it was the only one that came to mind to describe what I meant. Got a more suitable word to use?

At some point years ago the terms switched from underground or commercial musician to hobbyist or pro. I think we know which camp is happier with that switch.

That's a bigger picture conversation though, how it seems the underground got bought and paid for, or sidelined years ago, and now it's just accepted as the realm of unsuccessful or hobbyist musicians.

Back to the original subject though.

Seems to me lots of hobbyists get caught up in a production mindset when it is not necessary. Any DAW today can get from point A to point B in most cases. If I had to score a documentary and use Bitwig, I can do it just fine. It is not that it cannot be done, but it would be slower than with a DAW designed for that task (assuming familiarity with that DAW). IMO, speed is overrated and not that pertinent to most hobbyists.

Speed is never really overrated. One of the reasons that Live and subsequently Bitwig got popular was the speed in which people felt they could get up and running VS Cubase DP etc. The manual for DP is over a thousand pages VS around 500 for Bitwig. This translates into a simpler GUI, clearer and quicker at first.
Subsequently though, if you're going deep for whatever reason, the older DAWs will have features that speed up workflow. Navigating large track count projects in DP or Logic VS Bitwig or Live, it's just faster in the older school DAWs. If you get into odd time signatures or complex rhythms the MIDI editing in the dinosaur DAWs is just more advanced, down to event lists with placement to ticks etc.

In this sense that was my original point about Bitwig VS Live, at least Bitwig set up fast navigation, Live falls flat there. In terms of Max 4 Live though, at least Live offers some advanced support.