Arturia V8 Collection or Syntronik 2 Max?

VST, AU, AAX, etc. plug-in Virtual Instruments discussion
BBFG#
KVRAF
6637 posts since 28 Apr, 2013

Post Wed Dec 01, 2021 11:36 am

For those last comments, I have to ask, was your purchase "instead of" or "in addition to"?
With all the synths getting as good as they are and only getting better, I find my self moving more and more away from ROM/RAM Sample players.

If the choice is an either/or, then Arturia is the better choice. Especially since it has more than one plugin that also does samples.
And if it's a choice of which first, then again, Arturia.

dellboy
KVRAF
1859 posts since 28 Mar, 2007

Post Wed Dec 01, 2021 11:47 am

Arturia. No contest.

vertibration
KVRian
589 posts since 11 Nov, 2010 from ny

Post Wed Dec 01, 2021 11:56 am

martinjuenke wrote:
Wed Dec 01, 2021 11:13 am
vertibration wrote:
Wed Dec 01, 2021 8:48 am
davidka wrote:
Tue Nov 30, 2021 9:23 am
vertibration wrote:
Fri Nov 26, 2021 7:48 am
V8......Lots of new things coming
You have any hints in particular?
Hell no I dont.....
Well, you've had your 15 minutes of fame :clap:
No fame needed, this is KVR...its fun to go to dive bars once in a while and listen to drunks rant and rave

DarkStar
KVRAF
10057 posts since 2 Sep, 2003 from Surrey, UK

Post Wed Dec 01, 2021 2:55 pm

^^^
But you run the risk of getting beaten up yourself. Hic ;)
DarkStar, ... Interesting, if true
Inspired by ...

Gadget Fiend
Banned
434 posts since 5 Feb, 2012

Post Wed Dec 01, 2021 10:23 pm

jamcat wrote:
Sun Nov 28, 2021 4:53 am
Gadget Fiend wrote:
Fri Nov 26, 2021 4:13 pm
jamcat wrote:
Fri Nov 26, 2021 1:32 pm
Also, the Syntronik Solina doesn’t even sound like a Solina. Arturia is the only one who has ever gotten the Solina right, though many have tried.
Have you heard the GeForce Strings Machines plugin? It's all sample-based (and is basically an audio encyclopedia of string machines). While I agree that the Arturia Solina sounds fantastic, the GeForce version is quite good as well and has a killer built in phaser (plus the ability to layer different string machines).
I have heard it, and it’s even further from a Solina than the one in Syntronik. I used to have a Solina in my studio, and I know exactly how one should sound. It doesn’t sound like a synth at all, as it’s actually an electric organ. It doesn’t have a phaser. I guess because Shine On You Crazy Diamond has a phaser people got this idea that it’s part of the sound. But it’s not.

The Solina is all about the chorus ensemble, and it has to be done exactly right. And that’s where they all fail. That’s why VSM is so far off. IK got the basic chorusing close, but it’s way too dirty and sounds flat to me. The model is included in MixBox so you can really examine it. Try running the Arturia Solina through the MixBox ensemble with the Solina’s ensemble off, then switch them and you’ll see what I’m talking about.
How could a per note sample (says 7 seconds per sample) of a Solina with the ensemble on and off not sound identical to the original instrument vs. a physical model (e.g., the Arturia String Ensemble)?

Yes, I realize that the ensemble sound would be contained within the sample and potentially go out of sync with other notes in a chord. But this actually sounds great. You get this awesome polyphonic swirling sound that is far richer than the standard monophonic ensemble.
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User avatar
jamcat
KVRian
1382 posts since 2 Sep, 2019

Post Thu Dec 02, 2021 12:09 am

Gadget Fiend wrote:
Wed Dec 01, 2021 10:23 pm
jamcat wrote:
Sun Nov 28, 2021 4:53 am
Gadget Fiend wrote:
Fri Nov 26, 2021 4:13 pm
jamcat wrote:
Fri Nov 26, 2021 1:32 pm
Also, the Syntronik Solina doesn’t even sound like a Solina. Arturia is the only one who has ever gotten the Solina right, though many have tried.
Have you heard the GeForce Strings Machines plugin? It's all sample-based (and is basically an audio encyclopedia of string machines). While I agree that the Arturia Solina sounds fantastic, the GeForce version is quite good as well and has a killer built in phaser (plus the ability to layer different string machines).
I have heard it, and it’s even further from a Solina than the one in Syntronik. I used to have a Solina in my studio, and I know exactly how one should sound. It doesn’t sound like a synth at all, as it’s actually an electric organ. It doesn’t have a phaser. I guess because Shine On You Crazy Diamond has a phaser people got this idea that it’s part of the sound. But it’s not.

The Solina is all about the chorus ensemble, and it has to be done exactly right. And that’s where they all fail. That’s why VSM is so far off. IK got the basic chorusing close, but it’s way too dirty and sounds flat to me. The model is included in MixBox so you can really examine it. Try running the Arturia Solina through the MixBox ensemble with the Solina’s ensemble off, then switch them and you’ll see what I’m talking about.
How could a per note sample (says 7 seconds per sample) of a Solina with the ensemble on and off not sound identical to the original instrument vs. a physical model (e.g., the Arturia String Ensemble)?

Yes, I realize that the ensemble sound would be contained within the sample and potentially go out of sync with other notes in a chord. But this actually sounds great. You get this awesome polyphonic swirling sound that is far richer than the standard monophonic ensemble.
Yeah, I don’t know why, but the Solina is notoriously impossible to sample because of the chorus. Here’s Roger O’Donnell talking about it (at 2:21):

“It was a great sound, and quite difficult to sample. So in the studio we’d always use the real thing, but every tour we were like, ‘let’s try and get the best sample out of it this time.’ In the end I gave up...”

https://youtu.be/4zpB9IkoiFw?t=141
THIS MUSIC HAS BEEN MIXED TO BE PLAYED LOUD SO TURN IT UP

davidka
KVRian
546 posts since 22 Dec, 2010

Post Thu Dec 02, 2021 1:19 am

jamcat wrote:
Thu Dec 02, 2021 12:09 am
Gadget Fiend wrote:
Wed Dec 01, 2021 10:23 pm
jamcat wrote:
Sun Nov 28, 2021 4:53 am
Gadget Fiend wrote:
Fri Nov 26, 2021 4:13 pm
jamcat wrote:
Fri Nov 26, 2021 1:32 pm
Also, the Syntronik Solina doesn’t even sound like a Solina. Arturia is the only one who has ever gotten the Solina right, though many have tried.
Have you heard the GeForce Strings Machines plugin? It's all sample-based (and is basically an audio encyclopedia of string machines). While I agree that the Arturia Solina sounds fantastic, the GeForce version is quite good as well and has a killer built in phaser (plus the ability to layer different string machines).
I have heard it, and it’s even further from a Solina than the one in Syntronik. I used to have a Solina in my studio, and I know exactly how one should sound. It doesn’t sound like a synth at all, as it’s actually an electric organ. It doesn’t have a phaser. I guess because Shine On You Crazy Diamond has a phaser people got this idea that it’s part of the sound. But it’s not.

The Solina is all about the chorus ensemble, and it has to be done exactly right. And that’s where they all fail. That’s why VSM is so far off. IK got the basic chorusing close, but it’s way too dirty and sounds flat to me. The model is included in MixBox so you can really examine it. Try running the Arturia Solina through the MixBox ensemble with the Solina’s ensemble off, then switch them and you’ll see what I’m talking about.
How could a per note sample (says 7 seconds per sample) of a Solina with the ensemble on and off not sound identical to the original instrument vs. a physical model (e.g., the Arturia String Ensemble)?

Yes, I realize that the ensemble sound would be contained within the sample and potentially go out of sync with other notes in a chord. But this actually sounds great. You get this awesome polyphonic swirling sound that is far richer than the standard monophonic ensemble.
Yeah, I don’t know why, but the Solina is notoriously impossible to sample because of the chorus. Here’s Roger O’Donnell talking about it (at 2:21):

“It was a great sound, and quite difficult to sample. So in the studio we’d always use the real thing, but every tour we were like, ‘let’s try and get the best sample out of it this time.’ In the end I gave up...”

<span class="skimlinks-unlinked">https://youtu.be/4zpB9IkoiFw?t=141</span>

What I did try and got pleasant results is to take the raw sampled string machine sounds (UVI) and apply D16 Syntorus or Eventide Tricerachorus to them later on. They have that tri fold BBD chorus modeled.
I guess trials are available. I wonder if you could try, how Syntronik would sound like to you this way.

User avatar
jamcat
KVRian
1382 posts since 2 Sep, 2019

Post Thu Dec 02, 2021 12:12 pm

Besides the chorus, another reason—perhaps THE reason—the Solina cannot be sampled properly is because as an electric organ, it uses a divide-down oscillator to generate the notes. Not 12 oscillators. ONE. The Solina has a single oscillator that generates an ultrasonic frequency which is divided by divider circuits for each note (this is why Solinas have unlimited polyphony in the upper voices.)

So every voice of every note will be perfectly in phase and synced to a master frequency at all times. How are you going to recreate that with samples? You aren't, unless you build a special sample playback engine that syncs the waveforms. Throw on top of that the fact that each note played can be made from any combination of viola, violin, and trumpet or horn, and possibly cello and contrabass too (in the lower octave + 5th.) So every possible combination should be sampled as a unit, separately. The second you layer samples, the sound falls apart.

But wait, you can adjust the bass and upper volume separately. So you're back to having to layer samples, so you'll definitely need that sync engine. And there's the issue that the cello and contrabass voices are monophonic with note-stealing going to the lowest note (a quirk of the divide-down circuit for the bass section.) So your sample playback engine will have to deal with all that correctly, too.

I haven't heard the UVI String Machines. Maybe they did everything right as far as samples go. But, at this point, why would you bother? The Arturia Solina modeling is, far as I can tell, flawless. I believe they correctly modeled the Solina's single divide-down oscillator and slightly off 3-line chorus that is 0°/120°/240° (but not quite.)

Arturia even has the trumpet voice not sound when the horn is engaged, which is another quirk of the real Solina (because the horn is the trumpet voice + a lowpass filter.)

The only thing I don't like about it is Arturia added a Polymoog "Vox Humana" voice that doesn't belong on a Solina. So I just never ever push that button. Why they did that, I have no idea. In V1, it only appeared when you opened the lid for advanced mode, but it's always visible in V2 with no way to hide it. Too bad, since it offends me to look at. :x :lol:
THIS MUSIC HAS BEEN MIXED TO BE PLAYED LOUD SO TURN IT UP

User avatar
jamcat
KVRian
1382 posts since 2 Sep, 2019

Post Fri Dec 03, 2021 1:42 am

I was able to find one other Solina that does it right. It’s a 3rd party sound set for the Kurzweil Forte, which is a $4000 synth.

“First, in a real Solina you have the main oscillator divided in several parts, each part going thru filtering stages or not...
But because they are all coming from the same oscillator, they are always in phase.
The deep VAST synthesis was again a powerful tool. It can be surprising but the oscillators programming is done via FM !
I used a specific multiplying frequencies technic and all oscillators are perfectly in phase and clean.
Then the oscillators are sent thru filtering stages, like the original.....”

https://www.barbandco.com/store/p214/Ke ... olina.html

So they’re doing it with FM synthesis, it seems. Sound examples are pretty legit. Definitely better than sample-based Solinas.

https://youtu.be/U-xFMI71mWE
THIS MUSIC HAS BEEN MIXED TO BE PLAYED LOUD SO TURN IT UP

aman74
KVRer
22 posts since 26 Nov, 2021

Post Fri Dec 03, 2021 2:00 am

turtletooth wrote:
Tue Nov 30, 2021 9:18 am
DarkStar wrote:
Tue Nov 30, 2021 9:09 am
flori89 wrote:
Mon Nov 29, 2021 9:06 am
DarkStar wrote:
Mon Nov 29, 2021 9:02 am
MegaPixel wrote:
Fri Nov 26, 2021 6:42 am
Arturia V8 Collection for €199
Maybe a silly question: but where are you seeing that price. Is it the upgrade from v7?
You need to own at least one Arturia Product to see that. If you grab Analoge Lite somewhere real quick then you will also get it for 199.
Thank you. I cannot see Analog Lite available anywhere. I do have an Arturia Account with the Analog Lab 4 demo in it.
If you check the buy/sell section here and at vi-control, you can sometimes find someone selling Analog Lab lite. I just picked it up and then the upgrade path to analog lab full was $70. Much cheaper path to getting Analog Lab than the current price.

I think that for a lot of people, Analog Lab is enough. With the whole V collection, to really do a deep dive, you need to learn the features and ui of each synth. Analog Lab and Syntronik are both preset browsers, but the experience is much nicer on Analog Lab.
So Analog Lab is comparable to the V8 collection?

I started looking for an upgrade path through hardware and to see if it came with any. Looks like Analog Lab comes with at least one keyboard that sells for 269….I barely looked so I’m guessing maybe it even comes with a cheaper one or the lite version might as well?

Anyone know any hardware that offers a good path to Analog Lab or V8?

Analog Lab compared to V8? Lab didn’t seem comparable with V8 only 100 more right now, but if it’s pretty good and I can get some needed hardware as well then that would be great.

What’s odd is some of their cooler hardware doesn’t seem to come with any software.

Atlatnesiti
KVRist
313 posts since 3 Apr, 2018

Post Fri Dec 03, 2021 3:27 am

In my humble opinion there is no contest really.
Arturia is a proper suite of analog modelling synths and Syntronik is just a bunch of sample players - glorified rompler.
Arturia all the way for me.

aman74
KVRer
22 posts since 26 Nov, 2021

Post Fri Dec 03, 2021 3:34 am

It’s interesting that the idea of samples being far inferior than modeling. I’m not sure it’s so cut and dry, but maybe I’m out of the loop.

Libraries of Drums both acoustic and electronic are most often sample based. Same for piano and many keys. Many others of course as well. In the guitar world a convolution based format for amp sounds and speaker cabinets is often preferred to a modeling method.

Why don’t we see many modeled acoustic drum kits?

VST’s or recording strips are usually modeling, but acustica is highly regarded and doesn’t that use convolution?

Just like with reverbs, for me personally, I think both dsp and convolution have their place, but in this thread samples are garbage?

davidka
KVRian
546 posts since 22 Dec, 2010

Post Fri Dec 03, 2021 3:44 am

jamcat wrote:
Fri Dec 03, 2021 1:42 am
-cleaned out the quotes so it would look better-
Yeah I forgot about the divide-down architecture. It would be interesting to know how IK (or UVI) tackled their sampling.

Thanks for your input on the Arturia Solina, it is reassuring to see that a former owner likes it!
(So I won't have doubts when I play it :) )

noiseboyuk
KVRAF
3591 posts since 25 Jan, 2007

Post Fri Dec 03, 2021 3:45 am

aman74 wrote:
Fri Dec 03, 2021 3:34 am
It’s interesting that the idea of samples being far inferior than modeling. I’m not sure it’s so cut and dry, but maybe I’m out of the loop.

Libraries of Drums both acoustic and electronic are most often sample based. Same for piano and many keys. Many others of course as well. In the guitar world a convolution based format for amp sounds and speaker cabinets is often preferred to a modeling method.

Why don’t we see many modeled acoustic drum kits?

VST’s or recording strips are usually modeling, but acustica is highly regarded and doesn’t that use convolution?

Just like with reverbs, for me personally, I think both dsp and convolution have their place, but in this thread samples are garbage?
A synthesizer is such a totally different animal to a drum kit. Think of the complexity of all those elements in a synth.

Of course you can sample any one patch or element perfectly well - Omnisphere has a number of classic samples patches of classic synths like the D-50 and they sound perfect - but it's not a D-50, it's just a few patches. Of course Omni has it's own complete synth engine and architecture for recreating classic synths as well.
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Examigan
KVRAF
6357 posts since 15 Sep, 2005 from East Coast of the USA

Post Fri Dec 03, 2021 3:45 am

Speaking of string synths, another one you guys might want to checkout is Loomer's String.
https://www.loomer.co.uk/string.html

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