Raw hardware oscillator samples
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OneOfManyPauls OneOfManyPauls https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=382596
- KVRian
- Topic Starter
- 1103 posts since 17 Jul, 2016 from Wales, UK
@aciddose - always nice to be told why I shouldn't want the thing I want, why it's not useful to me, and with a nice dollop of condescension too. Thanks?
I'm not expecting waveforms taken at the circuit level - I'm just seeking waveforms that are as raw as practicably possible. Reasonable minds understand the request for what it is.
There is enough variation between these waveforms to have a material impact on the output from the sample/wavetable based synths I'm using them with.
I appreciate the links and files that have already been posted, that is definitely useful to me.
I'm not expecting waveforms taken at the circuit level - I'm just seeking waveforms that are as raw as practicably possible. Reasonable minds understand the request for what it is.
There is enough variation between these waveforms to have a material impact on the output from the sample/wavetable based synths I'm using them with.
I appreciate the links and files that have already been posted, that is definitely useful to me.
I have synthmaster 2 - I can't see the waveforms as individual samples, I trust they're all inside the "Factory Waveforms.smar" file, do you know of a way to access them other than resampling?
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OneOfManyPauls OneOfManyPauls https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=382596
- KVRian
- Topic Starter
- 1103 posts since 17 Jul, 2016 from Wales, UK
brilliant, that helped me find them on my mac at: [HD]/Library/Application Support/KV331 Audio/SynthMaster/Resources/UserWaveforms - thanks
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- KVRAF
- 12555 posts since 7 Dec, 2004
That's your personally biased interpretation of my intended meaning. My intended meaning is to say that you can far more trivially recreate these shapes on your own 100% within the software - once you understand all the factors at play.OneOfManyPauls wrote: ↑Thu Jan 20, 2022 12:25 pm @aciddose - always nice to be told why I shouldn't want the thing I want, why it's not useful to me, and with a nice dollop of condescension too. Thanks?
I'm not expecting waveforms taken at the circuit level - I'm just seeking waveforms that are as raw as practicably possible. Reasonable minds understand the request for what it is.
They are not at all complicated or unique. There is nothing at all "analog" about them. So I'm telling you that to seek "analog oscillator waveforms" is a nonsense request. You ought to study these very simple factors (I described most of them in high detail) and find a synthesizer with the precise phase control and wave-shaping capabilities you need to create them yourself.
Unfortunately finding a synthesizer like that usually puts you into the domain of modulars with severe limitations on modules. It becomes incredibly difficult to find tools with the capability to reproduce these very simple waveforms. That is one of many reasons software still doesn't stack up against a simple analog synthesizer - the software isn't modeling 90% of the tiny "irrelevant" factors that make up the complete result.
If you do find a particular waveform you feel is very interesting I can offer to help you research how it was actually created. I think though that when you do get into these 100s of very similar waveforms you're stuck in the same sort of preset-flipping or channel-flipping mode, GAS gear acquisition syndrome and so on.
It's easy to get caught up with too much focus on these things when what you really want is a complete sound that satisfies you in your music. Collecting these samples or analyzing them couldn't be any further from creativity.
Free plug-ins for Windows, MacOS and Linux. Xhip Synthesizer v8.0 and Xhip Effects Bundle v6.7.
The coder's credo: We believe our work is neither clever nor difficult; it is done because we thought it would be easy.
Work less; get more done.
The coder's credo: We believe our work is neither clever nor difficult; it is done because we thought it would be easy.
Work less; get more done.
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- KVRAF
- 12555 posts since 7 Dec, 2004
Here's a small set of samples of the complete output (not from the oscillator!) from one of my many analogs I've built:
http://xhip.net/temp/archive/adxs1.zip
I removed most of the longer samples of modulated PWM but left in quite a few. If this archive were trimmed to single-cycle across five octaves or similar it would be around 256k or 512k maybe.
The pulse shaper in some synthesizers is actually taking the ramp input at an amplitude like 50x or +34 dB and hard-clipping it. To reproduce that shape accurately in software requires you to look at the actual curve of the ramp between the flat edges of the pulse where it's clipped.
Obviously if the ramped portion makes up 1/50th of the pulse, at very high frequencies that'll be one sample wide. At very low frequencies though you'll get a pulse with one sharp edge and one ramped edge: this adds some asymmetric even order harmonics and the overall pulse gets "softer" in tone at lower bass frequencies and sub frequencies like 30 Hz. That pulse shaper circuit is present in most of the Roland SH- synthesizers and many many other brands but each one has slightly different amplitudes, they use slightly different opamps and so on, so the exact ratios are very slightly varied.
This is the same source of uniqueness as for the Roland TB-303 pulse which is clipped using a pair of transistors and both a high-pass and low-pass filter in the shaper itself.
The MS-10 and -20 triangle shaper circuits along with the Moog triangle shaper (and similar in many other synthesizer brands) use a very simple high-pass filter and phase-splitter made from only an opamp or a few transistors and capacitors. This produces very nearly a perfect triangle at high frequencies but as you get lower more of the imperfect edge of the ramp waveform ends up in the middle of the triangle which makes it "buzz" at low frequencies.
The MS-10 and -20 (and many other) ramp waveforms are passed through a FET buffer which saturates and soft-clips one side of the waveform. This has little audible impact on its own, but further through the circuits it leads to asymmetric pulses from pulse shapers and DC biased asymmetric shapes in filters and amplifiers. The circuit I've used in the ADXS1 is almost identical to the Korg MS-10 but my circuit is designed to emphasize this imperfection... although if you look at the ramp waveform I included you'll see the particular bias on the FET transistor in that case was very low and had no measurable impact on the ramp shape at all!
The same tiny variations accumulate when you're using hardware synthesizers, effects, mixer consoles and miles of patch cables. Each knob is going to produce a slightly different resistance or level even when in a microscopically identical position visually.
On and on and on and on none of this makes my music any better or creates any inspiration.
http://xhip.net/temp/archive/adxs1.zip
I removed most of the longer samples of modulated PWM but left in quite a few. If this archive were trimmed to single-cycle across five octaves or similar it would be around 256k or 512k maybe.
The pulse shaper in some synthesizers is actually taking the ramp input at an amplitude like 50x or +34 dB and hard-clipping it. To reproduce that shape accurately in software requires you to look at the actual curve of the ramp between the flat edges of the pulse where it's clipped.
Obviously if the ramped portion makes up 1/50th of the pulse, at very high frequencies that'll be one sample wide. At very low frequencies though you'll get a pulse with one sharp edge and one ramped edge: this adds some asymmetric even order harmonics and the overall pulse gets "softer" in tone at lower bass frequencies and sub frequencies like 30 Hz. That pulse shaper circuit is present in most of the Roland SH- synthesizers and many many other brands but each one has slightly different amplitudes, they use slightly different opamps and so on, so the exact ratios are very slightly varied.
This is the same source of uniqueness as for the Roland TB-303 pulse which is clipped using a pair of transistors and both a high-pass and low-pass filter in the shaper itself.
The MS-10 and -20 triangle shaper circuits along with the Moog triangle shaper (and similar in many other synthesizer brands) use a very simple high-pass filter and phase-splitter made from only an opamp or a few transistors and capacitors. This produces very nearly a perfect triangle at high frequencies but as you get lower more of the imperfect edge of the ramp waveform ends up in the middle of the triangle which makes it "buzz" at low frequencies.
The MS-10 and -20 (and many other) ramp waveforms are passed through a FET buffer which saturates and soft-clips one side of the waveform. This has little audible impact on its own, but further through the circuits it leads to asymmetric pulses from pulse shapers and DC biased asymmetric shapes in filters and amplifiers. The circuit I've used in the ADXS1 is almost identical to the Korg MS-10 but my circuit is designed to emphasize this imperfection... although if you look at the ramp waveform I included you'll see the particular bias on the FET transistor in that case was very low and had no measurable impact on the ramp shape at all!
The same tiny variations accumulate when you're using hardware synthesizers, effects, mixer consoles and miles of patch cables. Each knob is going to produce a slightly different resistance or level even when in a microscopically identical position visually.
On and on and on and on none of this makes my music any better or creates any inspiration.
Last edited by aciddose on Thu Jan 20, 2022 11:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Free plug-ins for Windows, MacOS and Linux. Xhip Synthesizer v8.0 and Xhip Effects Bundle v6.7.
The coder's credo: We believe our work is neither clever nor difficult; it is done because we thought it would be easy.
Work less; get more done.
The coder's credo: We believe our work is neither clever nor difficult; it is done because we thought it would be easy.
Work less; get more done.
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- KVRAF
- 12555 posts since 7 Dec, 2004
Also I know I'm using "analog" here rather than "hardware" but they pretty much are the same thing. There are a lot of weird little factors in the design of a digital hardware synth and the software running on its DSPs or whatever just the same as the cheap little tricks in an analog circuit.
Free plug-ins for Windows, MacOS and Linux. Xhip Synthesizer v8.0 and Xhip Effects Bundle v6.7.
The coder's credo: We believe our work is neither clever nor difficult; it is done because we thought it would be easy.
Work less; get more done.
The coder's credo: We believe our work is neither clever nor difficult; it is done because we thought it would be easy.
Work less; get more done.
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- KVRAF
- 1568 posts since 1 Aug, 2006 from Italy
You may want to give a look at my signature and the threads I started in the "Samplers, Sampling & Sample Libraries" section for more details.
Most of the time, I record samples from analog synths to use them as a "rich" source to build patches in a sampler, using the filtering capabilities of the sampler rather than then relying on the original synth features, so I think some of those samples may be useful to you.
A good part of the samples I share are raw waveforms (clean or distorted - I usually state when it's processed/distorted) without filtering. I usually record every note for a few seconds, so my sample packs are big (in relation to the actual amount of samples / content).
I usually don't state the synth / equipment (but I provide them if asked via PM, but these days I'm quite busy so I don't have time to provide all the informations).
My samples are free for music making, but not to build new libraries / products and then share them (I usually state that in the readme inside the packs). Of course loading them in a sampler / synth and using them to make your own music is absolutely ok (that's what those samples are mean for).
Most of the time, I record samples from analog synths to use them as a "rich" source to build patches in a sampler, using the filtering capabilities of the sampler rather than then relying on the original synth features, so I think some of those samples may be useful to you.
A good part of the samples I share are raw waveforms (clean or distorted - I usually state when it's processed/distorted) without filtering. I usually record every note for a few seconds, so my sample packs are big (in relation to the actual amount of samples / content).
I usually don't state the synth / equipment (but I provide them if asked via PM, but these days I'm quite busy so I don't have time to provide all the informations).
My samples are free for music making, but not to build new libraries / products and then share them (I usually state that in the readme inside the packs). Of course loading them in a sampler / synth and using them to make your own music is absolutely ok (that's what those samples are mean for).
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- KVRAF
- 12555 posts since 7 Dec, 2004
This is interpretive bias. I view myself as far below what should be considered acceptable as a valid lifeform deserving of respect or the right to life. If you want to subjectively interpret what I say or do outside your own bubble, please take this into account.
I'm attempting to do myself a favor here. If you were me decades ago and I was sending this post as a message to myself in the past, I would say: Please stop wasting your time.
I also argued with and misinterpreted the advice I received. If you were me decades ago I'd hope maybe you'd hold a mirror in my face as I gave you advice.
Free plug-ins for Windows, MacOS and Linux. Xhip Synthesizer v8.0 and Xhip Effects Bundle v6.7.
The coder's credo: We believe our work is neither clever nor difficult; it is done because we thought it would be easy.
Work less; get more done.
The coder's credo: We believe our work is neither clever nor difficult; it is done because we thought it would be easy.
Work less; get more done.
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- KVRAF
- 12555 posts since 7 Dec, 2004
No need to apologize, I was on the fence about what the intention was and although I considered it might be a subtle sarcastic jab I was also replying to push on that I don't like to be viewed that way at all. I definitely don't think I know what I'm talking about, I'm just as lost as anyone!
What I mean by me as a young person though is that over the years I have spent a massive amount of time/effort getting way too far into these little details. I've looked at sample sets as "just for fun", "just a bunch of waveforms" too, and yes... I sort of do know what I'm talking about there ... at least if I'm giving my own opinion.
I tend to use language that might carry the connotation of absolutes... but really I'm just sort of yelling out across the void from inside my own little bubble here. I can't see in anyone else's little world with all their own opinions and feelings and such. So it sucks to have what I say interpreted either as an absolute statement, official, wisdomous or God help us ... "Correct." I'm what you'd call an agnostic. In my worldview (and when I'm speaking) I view everything I believe, know, experience and say as incorrect. I also believe it is impossible to ever be entirely correct.
... but more back on topic. I'd be super interested to hear any other examples like the ones I gave of waveforms that are really interesting. I'm sure there are a few others like additive/"FM" stuff but I feel like the scope of the subject is sadly very claustrophobic.
Last edited by aciddose on Fri Jan 21, 2022 1:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
Free plug-ins for Windows, MacOS and Linux. Xhip Synthesizer v8.0 and Xhip Effects Bundle v6.7.
The coder's credo: We believe our work is neither clever nor difficult; it is done because we thought it would be easy.
Work less; get more done.
The coder's credo: We believe our work is neither clever nor difficult; it is done because we thought it would be easy.
Work less; get more done.
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- KVRAF
- 12555 posts since 7 Dec, 2004
I feel sort of hesitant to encourage you to torture yourself but hey maybe you're a masochist like me! It isn't about intelligence in my opinion. It's about pushing and pushing and no matter how stupid you need to be, never giving up. Maybe more intelligent people have an advantage here... it's I guess talent like in anything. That doesn't mean someone like me without a special talent can't write a song or a computer program or use a modular synthesizer, make an analog circuit or do DSP programming. It doesn't stop me from understanding all these things if I push myself to invest insane effort that seems ultimately like a waste of time.
If you're interested in doing it, you can do it!
Free plug-ins for Windows, MacOS and Linux. Xhip Synthesizer v8.0 and Xhip Effects Bundle v6.7.
The coder's credo: We believe our work is neither clever nor difficult; it is done because we thought it would be easy.
Work less; get more done.
The coder's credo: We believe our work is neither clever nor difficult; it is done because we thought it would be easy.
Work less; get more done.
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OneOfManyPauls OneOfManyPauls https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=382596
- KVRian
- Topic Starter
- 1103 posts since 17 Jul, 2016 from Wales, UK
