MSoundfactory CPU problems

[MeldaProduction]

Downloading MainStage. To be honest, there were always performance problems with MainStage (which is kinda weird). Did you try other DAWs? Logic, Reaper...

As for the multiprocessing - generally when something is processed in multiple threads, there's a significant overhead, especially with audio processing. So it may be computed sooner, but actually requires more CPU at end. On M1 things are especially bad since they have these low-performance cores, which may slow things up. So often it just helps to keep everything nonparallelized.

Btw. what are you audio specs?

[MeldaProduction]

Be sure you have turned OFF Multi-core processing. I had the same issue with MDrummer, and when I turned off Multi-core, it solved it, now has very low CPU.

Was this on an M1?

Your suggestiong is definitely a possible workaround, but not a solution.

A lot of DSP uses custom Intel instructions, those have to be reimplemented in M1.

https://eclecticlight.co/2021/08/06/acc ... n-to-simd/

This is actually quite important. Basically Apple seems to discourage us from using any vector support and rely on the compiler to do the trick. Which is usually does, but not always - I have implemented some filter acceleration, which usually makes them like 2.5-3.5x faster, but without the direct intrinsic support, there's no way for the compiler to figure this out probably... who knows what Apple comes up with. But direct assembly is a bad idea (just about the article).

[MeldaProduction]

Ok, so installation went quickly, I started MainStage on a new MBPro 16 (just 16GB RAM though, seems enough for this case), loaded MSF on a separate track, loaded Drawbar organ, started playing like crazy - holding as many notes as I could with my elbows and stuff . With or without multi-core, no problems. But I dont' really see CPU meter, where is it??

[MikeyB59]

Where do I turn of Multi-core processing on M1? I just updated to Ableton 11.1 which is supposed to be M1 compatible, loaded in an MDrummer plugin, added a kit and tried to play a pattern. There's noise, cpu spiking and the session actually speeds up and slows down. Not really workable, so I'll try any suggestions offered.

[magmagwa]

Be sure you have turned OFF Multi-core processing. I had the same issue with MDrummer, and when I turned off Multi-core, it solved it, now has very low CPU.

Was this on an M1?

Your suggestiong is definitely a possible workaround, but not a solution.

A lot of DSP uses custom Intel instructions, those have to be reimplemented in M1.

https://eclecticlight.co/2021/08/06/acc ... n-to-simd/

This is actually quite important. Basically Apple seems to discourage us from using any vector support and rely on the compiler to do the trick. Which is usually does, but not always - I have implemented some filter acceleration, which usually makes them like 2.5-3.5x faster, but without the direct intrinsic support, there's no way for the compiler to figure this out probably... who knows what Apple comes up with. But direct assembly is a bad idea (just about the article).

I think this is a more practical guide:
https://eclecticlight.co/2021/12/18/exp ... n-m1-macs/

It mentions AMX2 (undocumented) so probably no bueno.

However Accelerate or Metal library provide to access vector/matrix operations in the Neural Engine and GPU.

Are these APIs you can take advantage of or is there no solution to achieve Intel level performance?

[magmagwa]

Apparently, NI Massive X had similar issues porting Intel w/ AVX to M1 but it looks like they got there, not saying it was easy:
https://www.native-instruments.com/foru ... 473/page-6

[jbar]

Thanks for the advices:

- I switched the Multicore off
- Put the Sampler max Memory to 64
- Put the smart interpolation to normal (was high before).

All this together reduces the CPU load by 20%, at least I don’t have any audio drops anymore.

In the meantime Melda informed me that Mainstage is on the list of unsupported DAW’s (Silicon).

All together it is annoying and I try to replace MSoundfactory by other plugins.

[MikeyB59]

Well, after reporting MDrummer cpu overload problems with one instance in M1 Max Ableton 11.1 scenario, I tried using MDrummer in Logic Pro. It worked much better. I got system overload with 4 instances with 2020 kits running together at 128. Increasing to 256 it ran fine. So it's clear that Ableton's implementation of "M1 compatibility" isn't nearly as good as Logic's, but Melda's is much better than I initially thought, at least in MDrummer.

[jbar]

I tested it with Logic, Live and Reason. With multicore and one instance of MSoundfactory Live was the best for me with some Audiodrops,
after that Logic and Reason did not work at all. When I put multicore off Reason was great, after that Ableton and latest Logic with still some audio drops.

For me is clear that something in the programming of Melda is wrong. Why multicore support gives a higher CPU load? When I use my U-he plugins it is exactly the other way around. While multicore is on the CPU drops to a minimum.

[MeldaProduction]

Please don't try to make judgements about "wrong programming" and stuff, it's like if I'd be talking about SpaceX rocket efficiency . Anyways while I could talk about parallelism and optimizations for hours, there's just not time, so just a few notes:
- Comparing multiple plugins when it comes to parallelism is generally a nonsense, especially very different ones like the mentioned MDrummer and Diva.
- Parallel processing is effective only if the individual tasks are CPU intensive and overhead is acceptable considering the time constraints - in other words, the more CPU intensive individual voice rendering is, the more efficient the parallelism is (since it then starts to outweight the massive overhead required for synchronization). Also the latency needs to be high enough.
- Parallel processing highly depends on DAW implementation due to potential collisions.

So at the end there's a reason the Multi-core button is on the main screen directly - you just never know. Especially since both MDrummer and MSoundFactory can feature both very CPU-easy and CPU-intensive settings. It's also quite essential to set the latency as high as possible. Personally I use 256 samples for 48k sampling rate with normal instruments and mixing, and when I'm recording on e-drums I lower it to 128 samples, since there it feels a bit off with 256.

And now what you probably won't like to hear - M1 is no miracle. I get it, you bought a new computer with all the Apple's propaganda and now something is not as great as you'd like, so it must be the software, right? Well, while my MBPro 16 M1 seems to work very fast, there are limitations. Mainly the cores - this one is the builky powerhorse (unlike the MBPro 13 with just 4 powercores), so it has 8 powercores and 2 low speed cores. First, the software may be unlucky enough have a voice rendered on low speed cores and while the core affinity can partly be controlled, there are problems with that especially on the plugin's side. And second, 8 just isn't much. My Intel notebook has 8x2 cores, so twice as much.
So the sad truth is, that M1 actually isn't very "designed" for audio processing. Also the software situation will kinda "stabilize" for years, that's just how it is.

I also did some pretty exhaustive benchmarking for audio processing recently, trying to compare individual laptops, windows & apple intel & apple m1. The results were very inconclusive to say the least. In some case M1 was much faster, in other case M1 was much slower. At the end some average guess is that M1 powercores are slightly slower than the fastest Intels/AMDs, which is actually a really good result considering it's just the first one. Perhaps Apple will be able to improve this a bit and not just limit itself to increasing the number of cores? But that would be a good start anyways, since it's just behind the competition a lot at the moment.

There's a solid potential though. Especially considering the lower power consumption (though again this is not exactly what we need here, it's hard to say how big the consumption will be once they match the Intel/AMD cores).

[jbar]

Thank you for the explanation.

What surprises me though is that MSoundfactory performs worse on the M1 than on my 8 year old MBP.

This is also in contrast to my experience with other plugins or large projects that have always caused problems, especially with many instances on the old system. This all works fine, without any problems. I see there already a significant increase in performance, which was also described by you. Even plugins known as CPU - guzzlers like Diva or Keyscape run in multiple instances without problems.

But this does not apply to MSoundfactory, in one instance while turning the overdrive - button there are audio - dropouts. It is not because of my system settings (256 samples at 48k). According to you Apple is to blame for it. Well, it's funny that no other plugin has these problems.

Now you wrote that the comparison of different plugins is nonsense. In the field of architecture and programming I agree, but..........so what? Honestly, I don't care much about the programming of plugins, but in terms of performance, sound and ease of use, plugins should and must be able to be compared. Because that's what it's all about.

And here MSoundfactory has a competitive disadvantage.

Unfortunately, this means for me: MSoundfactory is to be deleted from the system.

[MeldaProduction]

Actually I didn't say Apple to blame for anything. It's you who constantly repeat that the plugins are to blame. Yet I wasn't able to reproduce any of this. And honestly, since you expect comparison like this to work and don't take any of the differences into account, then there's no help for you, sorry.

To everyone else - if you have performance issues, please let me know, but I need something to be simulated and I need you to be reasonable.

[jbar]

I simply said that MSoundfactory is the only plugin where I have audio drop outs when I turn the distortion knob on the drawbar organ while playing. The same happens with other instruments of MSoundfactory (e.g. when turning the modulation). I have sent the corresponding recordings to Melda’s customer service by email on request.

Here I was told that this is not reproducible. Fine. Even before that, I was basically called stupid and someone who tells nonsense. The only help, if you can call it that, was to say that everything is like it is. No advice at all. And I was told that I should not compare MSoundfactory with other plugins. Great! In the meantime I have noticed that other users also complain about the high cpu load of melda plugins.

Really hope you can help those customers with your approach.

Btw: I could not find any specific system requirements except type of the processor and OS - neither on the web page nor in the 156 page manual.

[MeldaProduction]

Actually I checked the topic, first you insulted another guy, who simply tried to help you and just couldn't simulate it. Then I tried to simulate it myself, no luck either. I tried to explain to you how to use the parallelization and wrote you an article about some intro to technical details. And your conclusion - it must be a bug on our side, because some other completely unrelated plugin works fine on your end and the support is bad (again). I'd like to help you, but I cannot do miracles, your are not listening and only pointing fingers... Luke showed me the videos - 17 seconds without sound.
You need to understand that MSoundFactory is no Diva. It can do hypotetically anything, and as such it can destroy any computer if you make the settings complex enough. Anyways if you want us to help you, you need to behave like that, start by helping us simulate it. Considering your computer should be faster, it shouldn't be such a big problem.

[jbar]

I did not know that the files where without sound. My fault, thanks for the info and sorry. Will re-record and send a MainStage project as well.

Regarding the guy: He simulated, right. Later he wrote that he can not help since he is on Windows and doesn’t know MainStage. It is my fault, I should not expect that people know MainStage and that ist is for Mac only.

It was not my Intension at all to blame MSoundfactory, since it is the only plugin I have problems with I just linked this problems to it. I understand that there are many factors and compatibility with MainStage is one of it. In Reason with multicore on I can not even play MSF without audio - dropouts, when multicore is off - no problem at all, all smooth.