Few Questions About Waveform

[ChiroVette]

Would you say it’s too good of a deal to pass up? Because as I said, I’m not in a hurry I could wait a few days, probably even a week, to buy a keyboard; but if this is like some glorified lightning deal, and I would be foolish to pass on it at that price, let me know and I’ll pick it up. If not, then like I said I’m not in a huge hurry.

[Watchful]

I would wait. As you know from the guitar world, there's *always* a last-second deal somewhere. If not this one--there will be another. And by that point, you might have a good idea what features you want specifically.

[ChiroVette]

I would wait. As you know from the guitar world, there's *always* a last-second deal somewhere. If not this one--there will be another. And by that point, you might have a good idea what features you want specifically.

Okay, that's what I'll do then, thanks!

[ChiroVette]

Okay so just a follow-up with some more general question. Rather than starting a new thread, I will post them here, if that's all right.

I just downloaded and installed MK PowerDrumkit 2 and was able to figure out how to add the plug-in to one of the tracks in a song that has no drums yet. But I am a little confused about a few things. I still have literally NO IDEA how to create an actual drum track, but that's a problem for later lol. I will revisit this in a subsequent post since I wouldn't even know what questions to ask now.

Anyway:

1. Where is the tempo of my song, the one I am working on? The lower, right'ish part of the screen has a bunch of stats like BPM 120, CMaj, 4/4, etc. But the only thing that seems relevant to anything I am working on is the positioning of the cursor, which changes as I move it, obviously. The problem is that those other stats, like the key, BPM, and Tempo are all generic, and never change no matter what song or tracks I am working on. Is there a way for a somewhat tempo-illiterate guitarist like me to click on a track or all the tracks I am working on and see what the actual tempo is in BMP and time signature? I can slow down and speed up a song globally or a track, but those numbers are only expressed in "percentages" of the original starting points. I Googled this, but just keep getting generic drum track info. I am completely clueless on even the most rudimentary aspects of working with drums in literally any form, but figured a good starting point would be to find the exact tempo/time-sig of the song I want a drum track for, then see if I can match it with some pre-set in the plug-in? But lol that doesn't seem to be working out, as all the "beats" I can find in MT PDK are way fast.

2. I am going to take a break from other aspects of music editing and try to learn how the hell to even begin to use a Drum Machine/plug-in/whatever thingy by watching some Youtube instruction videos on this particular plug-in today. In the meantime, does anyone have any advice for someone completely drum-kit-clueless like me on where to start? Literally the only thing I can do is drag the plug-in into a track (I chose an empty one), double click on it to bring up the plug-in menu, and choose some sample beats and click on them to make them play some bars. Edit: OH WAIT! lol I can apparently bring my mouse over a drum or symbol and click on it to play it. Yaaay! (I think). So in case anyone sees this before I get too far on Youtube and MT PDK's page, what the hell am I supposed to do from here?

3. I think it's time I pick up a MIDI keyboard now, as I have been putting it off, but I'm still not sure what to get. I could just go with the $59.00 one, which is the Alexis V-25 (old model), but then the Oxygen 25 is $89.88, and then there are the pricier ones like the LX25+, double the price of the V-25, and what appears like the Cadillac of these 25 key models, the MPK225. And that's only the 25 Key models. Still not sure if I need anything larger, but I am guessing no. Oh, and unless you guys say otherwise, I think I am going to stay away from the XKeys, as they look a little barebones for the money? I still honestly don't know enough about these keyboards and what I will use them for to make an informed decision on which one to get. But they seem like they will be instrumental (no pun intended) for drums, and obviously any keyboard tracks I want to create. Though, not a piano player at all, maybe I can do just fine with 25 keys? Again, unless you guys think I should get 49 or 61. I am not opposed to spending more money if it means that I won't be stuck with something I will absolutely need to replace in 3 to 6 months is my point. If I knew more about these keyboards and their utility to a musician, this would be an easier choice, as I would just buy the best one that has the features I need, and be done with it.

Thanks again, all!

[Peter Widdicombe]

It's definitely a journey...

Since you really have no frame of reference for a keyboard, probably get the one you were looking at. It's functional, you can learn a lot with it, and POSSIBLY decide what you really need - sort of like learning guitar, and buy a first accoustic one. You can think of it as your training wheels. Need more pads? More keys? control buttons? Faders? A light/smaller one will always be useful. 2 years time you may replace it; or be satisfied and that's enough. I would stay away from the XKEY, as it's really for travel/portability.

MT - it actually is 2 tools in one. It IS a decent sound module; although the drums aren't tunable. Volume/pan/compression individually or groups, and it actually DOES have 8 outs so you can compress or play with, say, bass drum and cymbals separately; but defaults to just all instruments panned as selected, as a stereo track.

THEN you get it's "groove" which is really a large number of preset patterns. Listen and pick the ones you like (default tempo is the one set in Waveform), and then DRAG them down to that little linear window. Default is a 3 bar pattern, and choose an appropriate "fill" for the 4th bar. You can create the whole drum track for a song that way - just repeat.
OR take subsets, drag them to the Waveform MT track, and you can mix/match them that way. Long verse is 7+fill or 2 times (3 bar plus fill)? If you hit the play beside the composer, it loops on that fill IN ITS COMPOSER.

Take a finished Opus or sections (drag the blue bar section, and part - will take that sub-composition or whatever's there) and drag it into the MT track. You'll end up with that section as a MIDI clip, which will play the drum VST in Waveform.
REMEMBER that once you have a MIDI clip you can alter it, loop it, copy and move it around...
For giggles, create a 3+1 loop, and drag it into the empty MIDI track with MT on it. In the "title bar" for that track, click on the L (for loop) at the top, and then drag the > arrow on the right as far right as you want. 40 bars? That's a nice click track ! Do multiple, and give them names in the Waveform properties section, and they will display that name instead of must "MT... Composition". Call them Intro, Verse, Chorus, Solo, etc.

[ChiroVette]

Okay, let's start with this.

It's definitely a journey...

This much is true. I need a break right now, because I'm ready to throw my computer out the window. Here's where I'm at right now.

I added the Drum thingamajig to an empty track. I can click on it and get a screen with a kit, some settings (compression and such) and whatever else is on the main screen. I can choose a groove, but literally NONE of them are what I am looking for. Which doesn't matter anyway, because I can't actually use them for anything. All I can do is click on them and they play.

I click on the left side of the track and I get a big MIDI keyboard on the bottom, which also allows me to play individual drums by pressing a key.

I have tried dragging shit into other shit, then other shit into more shit...nothing. I managed to somehow create a "New MIDI Clip" and drag it so it is the entire length of the project. But I can't actually do anything with it. The Youtube videos are all useless at this point. Even if I had a keyboard now, it wouldn't help. I shouldn't say that, actually. A keyboard would allow me to make noise a lot faster than I can with my mouse, I suppose.

I can make the drums make noise and that's about it. Probably should have just said that and left everything else out. lol

[ChiroVette]

Okay, I suppose I am making some progress...such as it is. I have now figured out how to pull up a virtual keyboard in a MIDI Track, which I stretched out to ten seconds, since for reasons I can't even begin to understand, inserting a MIDI track seems to be like 2 seconds. Okay, whatever.

Since I don't have a keyboard yet, I was able to mouse click random drum sounds into the timeline (or whatever the clip is called). It's just random at this point, though, but whatever. I seem to have a big rectangular grid of some kind when I zoom in on the MIDI whatever thingy. So I tried an experiment. I just randomly clicked all over the big red grid, peppering it with a bunch of random dots with no rhyme or reason. When I solo or play the MIDI track, I am getting sounds corresponding to the dots, which came from what appears to be a vertical virtual keyboard to the left of the track.

It's not music or anything, but I did manage to create ten seconds of random drum noise that I can play over and over again, and even edit. I can apparently erase these little dots, or stretch them out and stuff.

I suppose that is progress.

Any suggestions for instructional videos on this? I am ordering the keyboard from Amazon now. Maybe that will magically bring me wizard Tracktion/MTPowerDrumkit/MIDI powers when I hook it up?

[Watchful]

ChiroVette, how comfortable are you reading sheet music? I ask because MIDI is laid out in a similar way: bars, beats, key, tempo, left-to-right, with scales running from bass at the bottom up to treble.

[ChiroVette]

ChiroVette, how comfortable are you reading sheet music? I ask because MIDI is laid out in a similar way: bars, beats, key, tempo, left-to-right, with scales running from bass at the bottom up to treble.

Unfortunately, I’m pretty much musically illiterate lol. Nobody’s fault but my own obviously. The weird thing is I know music theory, like improvisation and scales and chord structures, and all that stuff. But I am an absolute musical illiterate.

[Peter Widdicombe]

That grid is called a piano roll view (which is really the only view that Waveform supports). Dots are notes, and length is the time they are "notes held down" until released. Piano roll, because this is the way player pianos used to work, and happens to be the "most logical" way of representing computer music. Keyboard is also on the left for reference when placing notes.
PS - you can cut and paste blocks of notes. Highlight a block of notes, copy, reposition and paste. Then adjust if you want. For conventional music, you can also push all the copied notes up or down.

There are other tools as well, but this will be information overload. Pattern generators to create simple basslines, or chord progressions that follow the I,IV, V, VI type of progressions. Ability to define the key of a selection and automatically adjust all the embedded notes. Play a chord with just one keypress. Show you whether MIDI notes are in the key or not by color.

You could change the vst into a piano and sound like avante-garde stuff? Then back. Or load both VST side-by-side and BYPASS the one you don't want to hear...

On that virtual keyboard, hitting notes (with mouse) at the very bottom is full volume, near the top is minimal - which corresponds to the velocity of each note. That, too, can be edited or drawn in later. You can drag notes around (vertically, which makes more sense if it's non-percussion) or moved around within the "virtual staff".

PS - when you DO get the keyboard, plug it in via USB to the computer BEFORE starting up Waveform, otherwise it will not be recognized until the NEXT time you load Waveform. Just like with audio, select it as the input device on a track, ARM the track, and hit record. SET a piano VST and record a scale or simple song, and then LOOK at the grid. Notes, note length, chords quickly become apparent, just as you learn where solos are when you see the recorded audio waveform of your guitar.

The "grid" will fill in as you play, and you can easily go back and correct mistakes. You can ALSO set the tempo to, say, half of what it was, record at that tempo, and then listen as that gets played faster than you're capable of when you up the tempo... Or record right hand on one track and THEN go back and record the left-hand part octaves lower with EITHER left or right hand. Remember, the keyboard has an octave up/down button.

On the Tracktion site, there are highly useful videos - pick topics and watch them. 5-10 minute videos can save you an hour of struggling, and give you all kinds of ideas, techniques, and shortcuts.

[ChiroVette]

Peter, I read your last post a couple of times, but I think my problem is that a lot of what you’re saying is slightly beyond my knowledge right now. It could also be because of a day of frustration lol so I’m gonna try reading it again tomorrow and try putting some of the steps you laid out into practice in some sort.

I ordered the $59 keyboard, just for the heck of it. I have a feeling that if I’m able to actually physically get my hands on the keyboard rather than trying to mouse click everything to death like a nine year olds dosed up on Ridellan, it may open up a more tactile avenue of learning this. Or at least that’s the hope. It’s weird, because I’m good with tech. I build my own computer systems, I troubleshoot very well. I cobbled together a really nice home theater system, with all of the accoutrements and wiring and all that nonsense. And I’m a goodmusician. So one would think that with my check scale and my musical background that I should just pick the stuff up.

Guess not.

Anyway I posted a few questions above that I was hoping to get some answers to, because there’s a couple of things about the software, not midi related, that don’t make sense to me yet. I’m going to cut and paste the questions here, in case anybody wants to answer them:


1. Where is the tempo of my song, the one I am working on? The lower, right'ish part of the screen has a bunch of stats like BPM 120, CMaj, 4/4, etc. But the only thing that seems relevant to anything I am working on is the positioning of the cursor, which changes as I move it, obviously. The problem is that those other stats, like the key, BPM, and Tempo are all generic, and never change no matter what song or tracks I am working on. Is there a way for a somewhat tempo-illiterate guitarist like me to click on a track or all the tracks I am working on and see what the actual tempo is in BMP and time signature? I can slow down and speed up a song globally or a track, but those numbers are only expressed in "percentages" of the original starting points. I Googled this, but just keep getting generic drum track info. I am completely clueless on even the most rudimentary aspects of working with drums in literally any form, but figured a good starting point would be to find the exact tempo/time-sig of the song I want a drum track for, then see if I can match it with some pre-set in the plug-in? But lol that doesn't seem to be working out, as all the "beats" I can find in MT PDK are way fast.

[Peter Widdicombe]

Just curious - do you have a skinny little 2-row info panel at the bottom of the Waveform screen, or do you have the "healthy" properties panel at the bottom that has a full little menu on the lower left? (It toggles with a "show/hide" ^ or down lower left corner). IMHO the full properties panel should be the default after install, unless you intentionally hide it. Yeah, it takes up some screen space, but it tells you everything.

WHEN that is in "show" mode, and you click on the BPM, bottom center has a "tempo" control that allows:
1. Setting tempo (BPM) numerically or using mouse to drag the bar back and forth
2. A "tap" bar that you click with the mouse. Keep clicking for 2 or 3 bars, and it will TELL you what that tempo is, and then "APPLY" to set to that tempo.

Similarly, you can set 4/4 to, say, 7/4 or other by clicking on it and adjusting in the panel. Interestingly, in the "minimalist" mode you can easily set these with the little popup or the properties panel; but tempo doesn't pop up.

You CAN also enable the tempo track at the top and set it there; or even insert tempo changes within a song there (or by inserting a tempo change).

[ChiroVette]

Peter, the tempo and time sig stuff I am obviously not using right, but more on that in a second.

I am making some SMALL progress, but it is very tedious and slow going. I was able to figure out how to get the drum plugin to work...sort of.

I created a MIDI track, and stretched it out to the entire "song" which is about 8 minutes long. It's a slow tempo Grateful Dead tune, but now it seems I have figured out how to manually drop drum beats in one at a time with the little virtual keyboard to the left of the MIDI track. I started only with the kick drum for now. So I kind of by eye dropped in bass/kick drum hits and moved them around so for like 20 seconds of the song I now have a kick drum hitting sort of around each beat in the measure. So 20 seconds, I have what seems like one kick drum hitting on every beat. I suppose I can make a loop out of this and just cut and paste it the whole song. But this is really tedious. STILL BETTER THAN NOTHING! lol and I should have my keyboard tomorrow as I ordered it last night.

Anyway, all I did was Kick and for a small part of the song. The timing isn't perfect, of course, because I did it by eye and then manually moved each "kick note" (or hit) so that my ear hears it at each beat. I think the song is in 3/4 or something as I am sort of hearing three beats per measure, but who knows, I am not a drummer and time sigs are not my thing.

So on to the global tempo and stuff: This morning when I woke up I managed to figure out, I think, that the tempo listed is tied to the "click track" whatever the hell that is lol. I can play the kick tracks and messed around with the BPM and it worked...Sort of. So I kind of (not sure) think that the song is in 3/4 and I think maybe around 40-50 BPM.

The problem is that editing this completely screws up all the musical edits I did! lol So I have 4 tracks without drums. I wanted to put a drum track in. So I thought a light bulb went on, when I played around with setting the global tempo to 3/4 and around 50 BPM, and was going to use trial end error until I matched the click track to the song. The problem is that doing this completely blew up my song! lol

I got pretty good at editing this Youtuber's backing track, and got the tracks/music perfect. But to do this I had to cut the song into little pieces, stretch stuff out, use cross fades, cut and paste parts around, until it was just right, perfect to play lead guitar and sing along to.

But the second I started playing with the global tempo, whether dragging that blue line in the "Tempo" track/section at the top up and down, writing in actual numbers for tempo, or even changing the BPM in any way, it breaks up all my little pieces and spreads them out. I suppose I could manually go through and drag them all back one by one where they belong. lol But that would be insanely tedious, because the overlap/timing of all those musical clips is perfect.

I was actually excited at first, because I am used to ONLY using the Timebase ruler thingy at the time with seconds, not bars. BUT that was while only editing the tracks sort of musically. Now that I am working with drums, I thought I could simply change it from "seconds" to "bars", in this way I can more accurately drop kick drum notes in one by one by eye, and maybe expand to snare, high hat, toms, etc. But this isn't going to work so long as I can't change the global tempo/BPM without destroying all my editing work. Because the tempo of the actual song I am playing bears not even a slight resemblance to the "global" tempo, time sig, or BPM.

Not to mention, I assume there really has to be a better way than going through entire songs and dropping in one drum hit/note manually throughout, right?

Does any of this make any sense?

By the way, I am NOT COMPLAINING. This is at least some progress. lol

[Watchful]

Unfortunately, I’m pretty much musically illiterate lol. Nobody’s fault but my own obviously. The weird thing is I know music theory, like improvisation and scales and chord structures, and all that stuff. But I am an absolute musical illiterate.

Not a problem--just wanted to reframe how we answer your questions.

Peter's done a great job explaining your situation, though, so not sure my question is as relevant now!

Remember that Waveform will have *no idea* what the BPM is on a recorded track. As Peter said, you have to figure that out by counting...then, and only then, can you change the BPM on the project file to match it.

Once you do, and assuming you know the time signature (which you can also change), then your drum hits should line up pretty well with the recorded tracks. Otherwise, you're going to be dragging drum hits all over the place hoping to get close.

[ChiroVette]

Peter's done a great job explaining your situation, though, so not sure my question is as relevant now!

Yes, he really has been AWESOME. But your answers still make sense. PLEASE feel free to chime in, even if you're just clarifying something or even maybe explaining it in a different way.

Remember that Waveform will have *no idea* what the BPM is on a recorded track. As Peter said, you have to figure that out by counting...then, and only then, can you change the BPM on the project file to match it.

Once you do, and assuming you know the time signature (which you can also change), then your drum hits should line up pretty well with the recorded tracks. Otherwise, you're going to be dragging drum hits all over the place hoping to get close.

Yeah, all this makes sense, but if I am reading the software correctly, I think the time to work out the time signature and the BPM is BEFORE I do any actual editing, particularly if you are really editing the crap out of them like I am with these backing track files. Because I literally can't touch any of that on pieces I am done editing the musical parts, even if I want to put drums in, like I do the song I'm working on now. Because anything I do to the time sig/tempo/BPM tears apart all my edits. So does this mean I need to work out all that rhythmic stuff before I start editing tracks?