Few Questions About Waveform

[Peter Widdicombe]

I have no double notes on the MPK261 - at least, not that I've noticed.

Now I *do* have to wait until all the Windows updates have completed and anti-virus updates aren't monopolizing the CPU - as it's a 4 Gig memory Windows 8.1 I use for recording. Any VST with large samples, glitches like crazy for the first 3-6 minutes after power-on.

[ChiroVette]

I have this issue with the built-in pads on every keyboard-type controller I have ever tried (admittedly not any particularly $$$ ones) and even on a number of dedicated pad controllers.

That might be true. You would know better than me, obviously; but the Alesis is reputed to have this problem. If you look up reviews and forum posts on the V25, this is an incredibly common complaint. My sense is that you're probably right and they all do it, but that it's a far less common issue with other keyboards.

I am still looking at other keyboards, but the Oxygen left such a bad taste in my mouth, plus now I have TWO keyboards I have initiated Amazon returns on. So I am thinking of just cutting my losses, cancelling the return on the Alesis, and then only sending back the Oxygen. I think I have already devoted way too much of my time to this already. I'm buying a budget MIDI device, not a new house.

I ended up with the Nectar Aura, which has been working perfectly for me - have not had the double-strike issue come up once - and I just ignore the pads on the keyboard controller when I happen to use one (as more often I am using a "real" keyboard with MIDI output).

I am neither a drummer nor a keyboard player. Also, I am not very into music production, at least not at this point. I basically only got a DAW and a MIDI keyboard as a sort of a means to an ends. I don't see a need for a separate drum pad unit, But the Aura really looks nice, and I am sure if I was like most of you here in this forum regarding composing and production, I would be looking at that as well. By the way, as an aside, I have read really good things about the Nektar LX25+ and the LX Mini. They look like awesome machines. They are a little pricey for the budget models, but they look jammed with features. So does the Oxygen Mini, which according to some video reviews I watched, was the best of the bunch. unfortunately, after dealing with this Oxygen 25 MKV, I think that will be both my first and last purchase from M-Audio. Seriously, worst customer support I have ever seen.

I'm actually leaning toward just keeping the Alesis and just using the keyboard for any drums. For whatever limited drumming I may need to simulate, I think the keyboard will work just fine, especially after downloading their software and adjusting the velocity curve yesterday.

[ChiroVette]

I have no double notes on the MPK261 - at least, not that I've noticed.

If I were a lot more serious about production and had aspirations of composition, I would pretty much have to go with this model as well. Honestly, it's not a budget machine anymore, though. All the online research (okay Google searches lol) I did told me that Akai's Professional line is some high end shit. But I don't see myself doing composition and production at anywhere near the level that I am quite sure you and most people in this forum are doing. For me, this is all about editing backing tracks for me to play/sing to, and adding vocal harmonies. I'm not even sure I have any sort of practical utility for this, or if I will just be basically the musician version of playing dress up in my living room with it. But now that I see the ability to really edit the backing tracks I downloaded, and to maybe create my own (big maybe!) I needed at least a budged keyboard. By the way, I did finish the one drum track I was working on. Separated it out into like four tracks, and I am no drummer lol but it came out okay. Fun fact: I had to use the Alesis, since the Oxygen was pretty much not serviceable.

By the way, I would LOVE to hear some of your stuff, if you to link me to it. You can also PM or email me if you don't want to make it public.

Now I *do* have to wait until all the Windows updates have completed and anti-virus updates aren't monopolizing the CPU - as it's a 4 Gig memory Windows 8.1 I use for recording. Any VST with large samples, glitches like crazy for the first 3-6 minutes after power-on.

Do you have enough computing power for what you're doing musically?

[Peter Widdicombe]

When I got the laptop, I had a feeling 4 G would NOT be enough, and the salesman said "no problem - just pop off the panel and you can plug in more...".

Yeah, right. MOST laptops are like that. This one, though, you had to take off the bottom panel. Remove the keyboard. Take out the hard drive. Remove the motherboard. Insert the memory chip. Undo everything, and pray. Saw a youtube video on doing it, and grew scared. Returned the memory module, and am living with 4G, and except for virus and Windows updates, seems to be enough for Windows 8.1.

I DO find some patches on SurgeXT (the latest version) will be problematic from processing (the last version was OK), so just have to watch and avoid heavily processed layers.

[ChiroVette]

Yeah, swapping out laptop RAM is not the same as doing it on a desktop, where all you have to do is pop out a few screws for the case. I will say that it is very doable. It just requires a lot of patience. I have done work on my laptops many times in the past, and if you follow instructions very carefully, group all your screws together, be VERY gentle with the keyboards and any connections you have to pull apart, it's very doable. Not that you should if you don't want to. You know, you can go to any one of a zillion tech shops that do computer repairs and they can add memory for you if you if you really need it. Assuming your PC is bottlenecking while you're processing audio or video, then maybe you need the upgrade. Also, is your CPU up to doing the job? Not sure how old your laptop is or if you're in need of a new one.

[ChiroVette]

Okay, not wanting to start a new thread every time I have a simple question about Waveform that can probably be answered here without its own entire topic, I have a question I think I know the answer to, but I'm not sure: I have several songs with a lot of sewn together fragments, all with various track volumes. If I select a group of channels and all the various audio clips within each of them, can I lower and raise the volume collectively without changing the relative volume levels that are already set? Or does raising/lowering volume of a selected group of clips and tracks negate all the differing volumes within the selected tracks?

Related question, in a MIDI track, when you left-click on it and it shows Clip Velocity on top, 100% obviously being the max, is there any way to raise the volume of the track independent of this, or is the Clip Velocity my only volume for a MIDI channel? I am finding my MIDI tracks to be noticeably lower than my regular audio tracks, but the channel volume fader doesn't seem to effect the volume. I suppose a good workaround would simply be to collectively lower the volume of the other channels relative to the MIDI channel once I set the velocity.

[Watchful]

1. You're likely describing a submix. I hope I'm right.
a. Select all the channels you want to group together
b. Right-click on one and select "Pack all selected tracks into a submix." Do NOT choose the folder option.
c. All those selected tracks will roll up inside a new track. That's the submix track: changing the output level on the submix will affect the overall volume of those tracks WITHOUT changing their individual levels.

2. You can absolutely raise the volume of a MIDI track up or down. But here's the thing: disassociate the word "velocity" with "volume." Velocity is "how hard you hit it." On many real-world instruments, a hard hit results in a louder sound, and lighter hit results in a quieter sound.

But don't be fooled: many real world instruments sound very different if you hit them harder--a piano sounds louder, but produces totally different harmonics. You'll want you velocities set less than 100% for the most part.

Also, non-real-world instruments can do incredible things with velocities: a synth can produce extra effects (modulation, most often) with a hard hit that may not be what you want at all!

Try to keep your velocities around 80-90%, and raise the output level plugin at the right of the track as you desire. Some plugins have a level setting inside, too, that lets you "add gain" without raising your track level above 0dB.

Generally, I'd advise against raising any volume level on any track: it's better to lower it. If you have an instrument that's so quiet you can't hear it, you should think about lowering the other tracks--they're likely too loud.

(EDITED TO ADD: On the submix question--what you're experiencing is exactly what drove sound engineers crazy decades ago when they started putting mics on drums. It was so hard to raise or lower recording levels on all the mics at once, they quickly figured out routing all those mics to a dedicated submixer, with which they could control the overall sound of the drums without ever having to mess with the individual mics. In your case, it's tracks/clips, not mics...but the problem is the same with an even easier solution.)

[pough]

I am finding my MIDI tracks to be noticeably lower than my regular audio tracks, but the channel volume fader doesn't seem to effect the volume.

You don't happen to have the volume plugin before the instrument, do you? You can't affect the output of an instrument plugin before the audio comes out of it. I'm sorry if this seems like an obvious thing but this has come up many times in the past.

[ChiroVette]

Thanks for all the information, Watchful! By the way, I should have realized I was talking about a sub mix, considering that I own a really nice PA system, and most of the gigs I have done with it, I did the sound on stage, and have to deal with multiple monitor mixes and I am familiar with subgroups. I have to keep reminding myself that in many important ways, DAW software does function similarly to to any of the mixers I have used to play live.

I need to go through your last post in more detail. A lot of great info there, thanks!

You don't happen to have the volume plugin before the instrument, do you? You can't affect the output of an instrument plugin before the audio comes out of it. I'm sorry if this seems like an obvious thing but this has come up many times in the past.

I'm sure for a lot of others it might seem obvious, but not to me. I had forgotten there was a volume plug-in since I am very new to DAW and this software, and have always adjusted the volumes on each track.

[pough]

I'm sure for a lot of others it might seem obvious, but not to me. I had forgotten there was a volume plug-in since I am very new to DAW and this software, and have always adjusted the volumes on each track.

Was that the problem? Were you able to fix it by moving the volume plugin to after the instrument plugin?

[ChiroVette]

I'm sure for a lot of others it might seem obvious, but not to me. I had forgotten there was a volume plug-in since I am very new to DAW and this software, and have always adjusted the volumes on each track.

Was that the problem? Were you able to fix it by moving the volume plugin to after the instrument plugin?

I have absolutely no idea lol. Nah, just kidding, it seems to. Whenever I bring in a plugin by right clicking on the track, whether reverb, Powerdrumkit, Collective, or whatever, it always asks me if I want to put it to the left, so it seems that is the default position to put it anyway, which I always choose. I am wondering now if maybe the last time I did this, when I was having MIDI track volume problems, I perhaps used the little plus (plugin) sign at the top right and dragged it by hand, putting it in the wrong place? Whatever the case may be, it seems to be working now, thanks to your post above, so thanks!

[Peter Widdicombe]

Yeah, think of that grouping of VST's on the right as your pedalboard for audio and MIDI instruments. Order really does matter. Think about your standard guitar setup with Wah, reverb, overdrive, and chorus. It'll sound very different if the wah is before or after chorus in the sequence; and might be quite interesting if you place reverb first ! (Although Andy Summers has probably done that ?)

With MIDI you have one extra consideration, in that AUDIO processing will have no effect on MIDI (other than potentially simply dropping all notes) until the VST generates audio output. Once it IS audio, then an arpeggiator or chord generator can't do anything - so the sequence (if you have multiple) is key.

[ChiroVette]

All that makes sense. Although, irrespective of where the default volume plug-in lies on the track with respect to the ones I pile in there, I have noticed that some MIDI instruments in Collective seem to record very low. Also, and this is strange, but it seems like some tracks/channels record MIDI lower/louder than others, but this I could be wrong about. Yesterday, one bass sound in Collective was recording really low, no matter where the volume plugin was, and I could not increase it much at all, even with the channel fader. Somehow I ended up recording the same sound on another track, and it was much louder. I have no idea why since every observable property of the tracks I could see were exactly the same. Again, though, I could be wrong, and I was a little scattered, bouncing between songs yesterday, that I may have accidentally done something to one track and didn't realize it.

[Watchful]

Ah, this is what I was referencing in my other thread. Collective was put together by a bunch of different people who clearly have/had different ideas as to where the sample levels should be recorded. The basses especially suffer in this regard.

This isn't a ChiroVette issue; it's a Collective issue. As an arranging tool, I sometimes use Collective to assign different tracks to different sounds, and then replace each instance of Collective with something brawnier--unless Collective is doing the job I want, which is fairly often.

I don't recommend its electric bass sounds, and that's usually the first thing I replace.

Its "Rock Kit" drums are pretty good though--and ironically tend to peak in the red even at lower volumes! I usually have to put a compressor or two on these to tame them.

[ChiroVette]

Watchful, I am most likely going to purchase Collective, irrespective of its arguably horrifying bass sounds. From what I can see, there are some decent sounds in there, and some of the piano and organ sounds are actually pretty good, if not very difficult to unearth sometimes. More importantly, though, since I am not a producer or composer, and have zero need for the paid version of Waveform, and I am getting a ton of use from this DAW completely free of charge, it seems only right to at least buy something to support the company.

Hell, I have arguably gotten more than $60.00's worth of use in just over the last month since I started using it.