Zebra 3 and Zebra Legacy

[Urs]

Some hosts partly identify plug-ins by their file path and executable name.

That's weird. Does CLAP allow the same freedom for hosts to identify plugins?

I would say that no host should ever need this for any kind of format. But as it even happens to creators of plug-in standards that they think they have to rely on filenames - maybe a concession to rouge plug-in makers? - for identification of a plug-in, I really don't know.

CLAP nonetheless has an arbitrary length text identifier which is recommended to use the reverse URL scheme, e.g. "com.u-he.Zebra2.clap", such that, I mean, who needs anything else then?

(which of course might not stop someone to use "1234" as identifier, or host developers having a mental lapse thinking "oh, this is too long, let's save the plug-in path instead")

[kalisblack]

I've got some external skins for zebra2... I'm sure you've seen them from Plugmon, for example. I have others as well. Are old skins going to be backwards compatible or is this going to be a whole-new something-something?

[dayjob]

I've got some external skins for zebra2... I'm sure you've seen them from Plugmon, for example. I have others as well. Are old skins going to be backwards compatible or is this going to be a whole-new something-something?

It’s going to be a whole new something something which is why “zebra legacy” is in the thread title. All the relevant details are in the first post I think

viewtopic.php?p=8431565#p8431565

[Lyhrus]

I've got some external skins for zebra2... I'm sure you've seen them from Plugmon, for example. I have others as well. Are old skins going to be backwards compatible or is this going to be a whole-new something-something?

In the manual of The Dark Zebra u-he call TDZ a Frankenstein's monster, because the UI of Zebra 2 was to small to house the additional features ... this and regarding Urs' own comments on this topic I assume they will recreate it almost from scratch.
The UIs of Plugmon are not only new skins but also a re-disposal of the modules. Zebra is a modular and the main grid with the routing lanes shows the structure of it all. Therefore it should remain in the visual center of the synth. Plugmon changed this and put it on the left side to get the generators and the modulators next to each other. Though I comprehend his decision I find it difficult.
On the other hand I like the skins of Plugmon, because he most notably matches the differing kind of modules (oscillators, filters, etc.) to various colours – without loosing the cohesion.

[Mmk41]

And I had rather have only one way to add modulators. Either a matrix or modulation slots in the modules, but not both, because you would have to check in two different places to see whether a parameter is being modulated or not.

One way to solve that could be a more unlimited mod matrix in terms of total slots and then whenever you add a modulation in the module, it is also visible in the matrix. That way all modulations can be seen in one place (mod matrix) when needed.

I do not think it would be a good idea. If the modulations are visible in the matrix, why show them in the modules too? It is redundant. And modules with built-in modulation slots take a lot of space on the screen, even if you do not use any modulation. Smaller modules mean less scrolling up and down when making sounds.

By the way, I would love it if the mod matrix worked like the one in ES2. It is the only synth I know where you can multiply, invert or offset modulators, and still immediately see what is going on. And again, it is much more compact than what we have now.

[Urs]

Direct modulation slots run at a much higher resolution than ModMatrix slots. For performance reasons ModMatrix Slots are evaluated at about 800Hz whereas direct modulation slots are evaluated at about 10kHz.

[kalisblack]

Thanks for the responses. I figured when I asked that this would be a whole new synth compared to zebra2. I have a bunch of synths, but zebra2 is one of those that just has the best ability to create amazing sounding plucks and bass patches. Referring to my last post... I love the plugmon skins - they do Zebra justice. I am hoping that u-he at least looks at what he did with those because they do implement some great features, such as having a button to easily dial up and down octaves without getting weird fine tunings on accident, or doing basic modulation assignments through drag and drop just like in Massive. Also, the overall appearance of Plugmon, for example, just looks more pleasing. I know I speak for most producers when I say... the GUI has to look nice for me to even pull up the VST if I'm going to look at it for hours. I know sound is most important, but it's always a shame when great VSTs lack in the GUI. Rapid Synthesizer is one that falls into this pitfall, for example.

[kmonkey]

I know I speak for most producers when I say... the GUI has to look nice for me to even pull up the VST if I'm going to look at it for hours.

No, you are not speaking for everyone or "most producers". You speak for yourself.

And you are perfectly correct - an item (VST instrument in this subject) needs to accommodate your own sensibilities. That's why you can try it and then you can make an educated decision after validating one simple question: is this item going to work for me or not?

But you see since you are your own entity with your own personality - what is good looking for you may not be good looking for someone else - like me.
Plugmon skins are horrendous and they look cheesy and a pain in the eye for me. I feel I could develop epilepsy while working with them and I think it's better to look at grass growing than looking at the Plugmon skins.

But you see, you like them and that's ok we are different and I can not speak for you or judge you because your own character is different from mine.

Zebra default skins look fine, balanced, and easy on the eye.

Hopefully, they will adapt the same philosophy in V3.

You just need to stop imposing your own views on everyone else. It's advice, not command.

[nilhartman]

Zebra default skins look fine, balanced, and easy on the eye.

Hopefully, they will adapt the same philosophy in V3.

Agreed. And the first Z3 editor screenshots look perfect in that regard, super easy to stare at for hours without eyestrain.

[Lyhrus]

No, you are not speaking for everyone or "most producers". You speak for yourself.
You just need to stop imposing your own views on everyone else. It's advice, not command.

kalisblack did not say that "everyone" or "most producers" should love the skins of Plugmon but that it would be nice for most of us to work with a pleasing UI. This may be a truism, but therefore it is not wrong, is it?

[Mmk41]

Direct modulation slots run at a much higher resolution than ModMatrix slots. For performance reasons ModMatrix Slots are evaluated at about 800Hz whereas direct modulation slots are evaluated at about 10kHz.

That explains why they sound different sometimes.

I still think all modulation should be in the same place. If matrix slots ran at the higher resolution, the matrix could replace direct modulation. You would be able to remove half the controls in oscillator and filter modules (it would save a lot of space) and to get rid of MMix modules (anything this module does can be achieved with a few matrix slots).

The performance issue you mentioned could be solved by adding a global setting (like the draft mode in Diva), or a resolution switch next to each matrix slot (which would make it very easy for a sound designer to compare the two options, and decide whether using the higher resolution actually makes a difference).

[kalisblack]

Lyhrus explained that well, exactly... it is a bit of a truism. However, the GUIs of plugins these days are a very common thing people talk about... so much so that it has become a common thing youtuber's actually "grade" in plugin reviews these days. I do find it more pleasing, but yes, it is my own personal preference that the Plugmon skin's help my eye. I was just suggesting that - hey - maybe it's worth taking a look at the features plugmon modified... couldn't hurt. Not even talking about the GUI, plugmon modulation routing and octave shifting are simply easier in their versions. The plugmon sequencer is a little more user-friendly as well. I'm sure u-he will do a great job, regardless.

The GUI of Zebra2 was great for a long time - but they've sort of been left in the dust compared to newer VSTs... but who wouldn't be after 10+ years? For how old this plugin is, it's still a gem. I myself am a happy customer of Zebra2, regardless of this discussion - it has served me well.

Here are the features in Plugmon that Zebra2 doesn't have. If they do this or don't do this, whatever, but it's good to see these features first hand for those that haven't:

[Urs]

I still think all modulation should be in the same place.

I prefer the paradigm of "on-target modulation depths". Which is why we've added on-target ModMatrix editing in Hive, so modulations via ModMatrix can be edited without observing 3 different parts of screen estate (modulator, target, ModMatrix).

[kmonkey]

This may be a truism, but therefore it is not wrong, is it?

Which part of his is "truism"?

I said it's perfectly fine as long as it's kept under "subjective" and not "I speak for most of ..."

Sorry, but my experience so far is that a company like U-he knows better when it comes to creating interfaces that will adapt to most of the people and their own sensibilities and workflows than the person doing only skins. However, we all know it is impossible to please everyone - visually.

So far my subjective experience tells me that for me this is the case. At least when it comes to U-he. They know their job and I choose their product for the specific aesthetic when it comes to GUI and workflow.

Obviously, that does not mean U-he is always "right" or "plugmon" is always wrong or vice versa.

To each their own. That's my point. Plugmon is or was hired to create different approach and it's fine.

But if OP is here to "speak for everyone" or for the "most" and then his argument goes against my experience, I am free to react and to express my view to the same developer (U-he) that I am not going to like it if they (U-he) change their interface philosophy because someone on the internet said he represents most of the people...

Ok I guess I am more clear.

[kmonkey]

The GUI of Zebra2 was great for a long time - but they've sort of been left in the dust compared to newer VSTs... but who wouldn't be after 10+ years?

That's just like your opinion, is it? Mine is different and where does this lead us?

I am not trying to be snarky but I hope you realize or at least can think in a way that something being "old" or created at some point in the past does not equally mean in fact inferior.

10 years is nothing. I mean just look at your everyday life. We are being bombarded with new and better and then we rehash or try to take it back where it was before - because it turns out that "new" doesn't mean exactly "better".

Take the creation of movies today and then compare this aspect to just 10 years ago and tell me what the hell is happening. I am not speaking about CGI but storytelling or editing. As if quantity or "newness" repacked in controversy if possible or current social dilemmas mean better. It does not.

Crap I went off offtopic...sorry to everyone