IK goes AI

[machinesworking]

hmmm, not that I don't believe you or anything, but I would think there would need be an update to Amplitube 5 before it could all work together, and as of now there isn't any update to Amplitube 5.

You're suspicions are right, I have the hardware in hand, now Capture is registered, but Tonex is nowhere to be found. I got another copy of Amplitube 5 SE with it so far. I already have Amplitube with everything they put out a year ago. I get that beta testing is important but this has to be near ready at this point, but here I am stuck for 5 more days without Tonex SE.

[jinotsuh]

Those 5 days will go quick I think, we've come this far, it's almost here.

[jinotsuh]

I had a bit of a heart starter a couple of weeks ago when I seen the following in my account somewhere while signed in.



But it just took me to downloads for the IK Product Manager

[MogwaiBoy]

I'm going to try the free version and compare with what I already have, before seriously looking at this.

The Capture hardware seems very cool, but I imagine with thousands of users worldwide capturing and sharing their own real amps (some of which I will own) - I'll get by, though I do have a couple of locally made gems that likely won't get captured. I will wait for the hype to settle and unbiased reviews to surface.

[Peter - IK Multimedia]

I'm going to try the free version and compare with what I already have, before seriously looking at this.

The Capture hardware seems very cool, but I imagine with thousands of users worldwide capturing and sharing their own real amps (some of which I will own) - I'll get by, though I do have a couple of locally made gems that likely won't get captured. I will wait for the hype to settle and unbiased reviews to surface.

And you don't need TONEX Capture to capture your own Tone Models, you can do so with your audio interface + reamp box if you've already got them. Of course I'm not going to talk you out of it if you end up wanting or needing TONEX Capture but I just wanted it to be clear in case some folks don't know this. Thanks!

[jinotsuh]

Well, tomorrow is the day, the wait is nearly over
Here's hoping for a smooth release

[chip mcdonald]

I think Peter an IK are going to have a ... bit of a bother trying to field misconceptions about Tonex. Some of this thread reads like a town hall meeting on _Parks and Recreation_.

A trained model doesn't know it is outputting an amp, a cab, a pedal - or an impressionist painting, a poem, or any other data. It is not modeling a circuit or a signal path. It can't have controls, unless you adopt a wholistic discrete model->model topology.

The GitHub ML "amp" is 3 separate models, with a tone stack after it. It looks like a single faux amp face, but it is not different than using what I presume will be 3 different amp models in Tonex.

Where I think IK will have to pivot is to consolidate single amp presets into an interface that apparently people are expecting - because everyone is used to endless amp sims with tweakable controls. People are going to throw tantrums about not being able to "turn knobs", despite most people making unusable sounds. Eventually a granular plexi, Bassman, Twin, AC30 will have to happen: separate trained models for at least a limited range of settings. Peter quixotically says it doesn't take them long to train, so I presume this will be possible eventually: amp packs with more granularity that approximates an the process of dialing in a sound.

Another problem is this "I've got an amp I want to capture" but then run through an IR. I'd point out that if you already have the amp you want, and you don't mind running it on an attenuator, AND you don't mind using an IR ....... why do you need anything else?

Also, I think when people realize the Kemper illusion of "amp controls" is a snapshot, the *curation* of the training process may become evident. Somewhere someone is going to try to train every possible control configuration of Their Amp, and I applaud that - but training a model of Their Favorite Amp on every setting is going to be a chore. Taking the cab/room/mic out of the equation is going to reveal diminishing returns and cognitive dissonance I think.

The best fun is going to be the whole amp, the *post amp environment*. The big selling point should really be that you *don't have to use IRs*. I realize IK has a conflict there....

I *want* the cabinet/speaker/room/mic/preamp trained. *That's the hardest part*. If I can get just about any stock plexi with everything at 12 o'clock - not ideal imo - BUT trained with a great cabinet, 55hz greenbacks or blackbacks, a good 57, 545 or 87/67 in a decent location, api or Neve pre... if I can get *that* anywhere in that ballpark that sounds 100% convincing as their demos imply is possible - that will be great.

In fact, if they do anything I hope they sell a vintage cab/mic pack with more trained models of speakers/cabs at different power levels, 57, 545, R101,67 in a couple different positions and most importantly, a variety of ROOM and DISTANT MICs - because reality is, a distorted guitar signal before it hits the output section is a pretty primitive thing.

You're going to want the cab/mic trained! *That's where guitar sims get out of the uncanny valley*. The danger IK faces is that this can swing into that _Parks and Recreation_ town hall chaos, of people shouting about how they're missing controls, OR



- it could kick off a new era where people finally move past being OCD about the early part of the guitar signal chain and start pursuing the cab->mic->pre world.

*Which is much more important to what you've been hearing on recordings your entire life*. I want a "Terry Manning Cabinet Mic" curated pack, selected speakers where he's picked the mics, the mic placement, on the cab and room, preamp gain, tape... THAT is the stuff, I'll take that with a Boss Blues Driver running into it over an almost-good model into a "good" IR. The names Terry Manning, Donn Landee, Bill Szymzcyk, Reinhold Mack, et al, are more important to me than Howard Dumble, Jim Marshall or Leo Fender. I'd take just about any Bassman in front of any number of classic recording's speaker->tape path over "the perfect Bassman" into a "good" IR. The speaker->signal path is as important as the amp: *nobody reading this was in the room when their favorite guitar sound was recorded*. You're taking a guess, where half the equation is where the mic was and who put it there.

The first half of the equation, guitar->pedal-> amp has been sussed out in micro detail for the past 40 years, the other half is just as hard to get right: speaker, mic, mic placement, room, pre, tape - where is your OCD for that?

Frakking frak, make it so....

[machinesworking]

I don't think anyone who reads anything on Tonex can come away thinking the presets generated by their AI is any more tweak-able than your average convolution reverb impulse.

I'm looking forward to it. I get people wanting it to be some sort of full amplifier capture device, but in practice with regular guitar amps per song I have never gone up and changed the settings, pedal boxes yeah, but manually tweaking the gain knob on the amp?

If I have the time I can even A/B a real amp and real RAT against the Presets used in Tonex, separately as in a tone capture of the RAT settings and a Tonex capture of the amp. That's I suppose where it may not be accurate but we will see.

[tappert]

I hope we won't have to download and install all the stuff included in MAX for the SE edition, my SSD is almost full

[jinotsuh]

It's here, go grab it

[machinesworking]

Of course it's 2:30 AM here, installed it anyway. Looking forward to it when I wake up.

[jamcat]

Peter, the TONEX Release news item says:

• TONEX SE - $/€149.99* - Includes 200 Tone Models and comes bundled with the following interfaces:
  • AXE I/O
  • AXE I/O SOLO
    

I own an AXE I/O, but I didn't get TONEX SE. Don't you think existing AXE I/O owners should get SE so we can start using our AXE I/Os to capture our gear? Doesn't seem right that existing owners should get penalized while only new purchases are able to get full usage out of their AXE I/Os. It's the same hardware regarless of when you bought it.

[machinesworking]

Peter, the TONEX Release news item says:

• TONEX SE - $/€149.99* - Includes 200 Tone Models and comes bundled with the following interfaces:
  • AXE I/O
  • AXE I/O SOLO
    

I own an AXE I/O, but I didn't get TONEX SE. Don't you think existing AXE I/O owners should get SE so we can start using our AXE I/Os to capture our gear? Doesn't seem right that existing owners should get penalized while only new purchases are able to get full usage out of their AXE I/Os. It's the same hardware regarless of when you bought it.

I would email them, they at the very least would probably offer you a substantial discount etc.

I hate that there has to be cutoff points but there has to be. I've been trying to get MOTU to give me a free copy of Performer Lite for a 20 year old 24io I bought used, so I have no room to speak!

[SLiC]

It's here, go grab it

Just got SE, 30 off with Jam Points- looking forward to trying it tonight...

[jinotsuh]

I think Peter an IK are going to have a ... bit of a bother trying to field misconceptions about Tonex. Some of this thread reads like a town hall meeting on _Parks and Recreation_.

A trained model doesn't know it is outputting an amp, a cab, a pedal - or an impressionist painting, a poem, or any other data. It is not modeling a circuit or a signal path. It can't have controls, unless you adopt a wholistic discrete model->model topology.

The GitHub ML "amp" is 3 separate models, with a tone stack after it. It looks like a single faux amp face, but it is not different than using what I presume will be 3 different amp models in Tonex.

Where I think IK will have to pivot is to consolidate single amp presets into an interface that apparently people are expecting - because everyone is used to endless amp sims with tweakable controls. People are going to throw tantrums about not being able to "turn knobs", despite most people making unusable sounds. Eventually a granular plexi, Bassman, Twin, AC30 will have to happen: separate trained models for at least a limited range of settings. Peter quixotically says it doesn't take them long to train, so I presume this will be possible eventually: amp packs with more granularity that approximates an the process of dialing in a sound.

Another problem is this "I've got an amp I want to capture" but then run through an IR. I'd point out that if you already have the amp you want, and you don't mind running it on an attenuator, AND you don't mind using an IR ....... why do you need anything else?

Also, I think when people realize the Kemper illusion of "amp controls" is a snapshot, the *curation* of the training process may become evident. Somewhere someone is going to try to train every possible control configuration of Their Amp, and I applaud that - but training a model of Their Favorite Amp on every setting is going to be a chore. Taking the cab/room/mic out of the equation is going to reveal diminishing returns and cognitive dissonance I think.

The best fun is going to be the whole amp, the *post amp environment*. The big selling point should really be that you *don't have to use IRs*. I realize IK has a conflict there....

I *want* the cabinet/speaker/room/mic/preamp trained. *That's the hardest part*. If I can get just about any stock plexi with everything at 12 o'clock - not ideal imo - BUT trained with a great cabinet, 55hz greenbacks or blackbacks, a good 57, 545 or 87/67 in a decent location, api or Neve pre... if I can get *that* anywhere in that ballpark that sounds 100% convincing as their demos imply is possible - that will be great.

In fact, if they do anything I hope they sell a vintage cab/mic pack with more trained models of speakers/cabs at different power levels, 57, 545, R101,67 in a couple different positions and most importantly, a variety of ROOM and DISTANT MICs - because reality is, a distorted guitar signal before it hits the output section is a pretty primitive thing.

You're going to want the cab/mic trained! *That's where guitar sims get out of the uncanny valley*. The danger IK faces is that this can swing into that _Parks and Recreation_ town hall chaos, of people shouting about how they're missing controls, OR



- it could kick off a new era where people finally move past being OCD about the early part of the guitar signal chain and start pursuing the cab->mic->pre world.

*Which is much more important to what you've been hearing on recordings your entire life*. I want a "Terry Manning Cabinet Mic" curated pack, selected speakers where he's picked the mics, the mic placement, on the cab and room, preamp gain, tape... THAT is the stuff, I'll take that with a Boss Blues Driver running into it over an almost-good model into a "good" IR. The names Terry Manning, Donn Landee, Bill Szymzcyk, Reinhold Mack, et al, are more important to me than Howard Dumble, Jim Marshall or Leo Fender. I'd take just about any Bassman in front of any number of classic recording's speaker->tape path over "the perfect Bassman" into a "good" IR. The speaker->signal path is as important as the amp: *nobody reading this was in the room when their favorite guitar sound was recorded*. You're taking a guess, where half the equation is where the mic was and who put it there.

The first half of the equation, guitar->pedal-> amp has been sussed out in micro detail for the past 40 years, the other half is just as hard to get right: speaker, mic, mic placement, room, pre, tape - where is your OCD for that?

Frakking frak, make it so....

Oh Chip old boy, you don't know how wrong you are, then again you may, didn't Peter have to correct all your misconceptions, and just plain misinformation over at Gearspace?

Here's a couple 'a bucks, go get yourself a clue on me.