IK goes AI

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machinesworking wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 3:09 pm
Funkybot's Evil Twin wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 12:57 pm What sucks is how difficult they make these to use. You can't use a stomp and an amp in TONEX and there doesn't seem to be a way to use a TONEX stomp in Amplitube, only in the amp position. So, some of these things were clearly not well thought out.
That's not an error it's a decision. IMO I think it's because they're not able to predict perfectly how essentially two amps in a row are going to sound and they're making it difficult on purpose to set up. it's got to be something like that, it's not like these decisions get made randomly.
First, I never used the word error or anything like it. I said "clearly not well thought out", which is obvious. Not an error, just an omission. And they also flag the stompboxes at the time you create the profiles, so they could have easily predicted, "users will want to put stomp boxes in front of amps". And IK said they'll make an update to add this feature, so, nothing else to talk about on that topic. Just wasn't well thought out. They'll improve that. I assume in both products.

Another area that wasn't well thought out: you can't save and backup individual profiles you create. All profiles go into this monolithic library instead of having individual files that I could transfer from my Mac to PC and vice versa. Only way to do that is ToneNET. Again, not an error, just not well thought out. I should be able to add a capture I make at a studio, a friend's house, my home office, my living room, to any other PC I own without having to add them to ToneNET first.

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I tried the demo of TONEX CS. I can't make tone.net work, I registered there but it keeps throwing up an error code in Amplitube 5 saying I'm not registered.

Oh, and standalone doesn't work at all with my Babyface, can't select it when I switch to the ASIO drivers (Win 10), so I have to use it hosted in Cubase.

On the plus side, a few really nice presets in CS.
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Funkybot's Evil Twin wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 4:04 pm First, I never used the word error or anything like it. I said "clearly not well thought out", which is obvious. Not an error, just an omission. And they also flag the stompboxes at the time you create the profiles, so they could have easily predicted, "users will want to put stomp boxes in front of amps". And IK said they'll make an update to add this feature, so, nothing else to talk about on that topic. Just wasn't well thought out. They'll improve that. I assume in both products.
OK I didn't think you'd take offense. You read like you assume somehow that this was bad coding, or in other words "not thought out", is why I said "error", what exactly is the difference to you? You're assuming you know why they did what they did, by saying it's not "well thought out". I don't think that's the case at all, I would guess it's what they could do with the tech as it stands. You're saying they have stated they will change it? that's great! but why would anyone assume that a developer would think, "I'll replicate the guitar setup, but leave out the amp when they use pedals."? It's likely that they have technical issues with stomps and amps in the same setup, and built in that limitation on purpose, I can't think of any rational reason they would think it out or design it with that limitation, without it being a technical challenge they're not through working out. :shrug:

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machinesworking wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 5:27 pm I can't think of any rational reason they would think it out or design it with that limitation, without it being a technical challenge they're not through working out. :shrug:
Sorry if I came off a little strong there. I didn't take offense. Was really just clarifying that I've seen this type of thing done and don't think it was a mistake. No worries. :hug:

I honestly think it's the same type of thing you see more and more of these days: companies are rushing to get a product out quickly, knowing they can improve the software later on. It's all part of Agile software development. I don't think there was any big technical limitation or anything of the sort, just more of a "we started development before thinking through all every use case and/or built for the most common use-case, then released the minimum viable product". Now, they'll improve it in future iterations. It's a way to maximize profits in the short-term. You jump right into development, get out the bare minimum (it's ironic but not unintentional that "Minimal Viable Product" is abbreviated as MVP), then iterate to improve, all while raking in the bucks.

The traditional software development cycle would've likely meant slower turnaround with requirements/use-cases/user stories gathered up front, analyzed, then software developed to meet those requirements, tested at the end, then finally released. Nowadays more and more comapnies are using a model where you jump right into development, test as you go, release as soon as you have something to show, then improve later (commonly known as "Agile development").

I think that's primarily what happened here. Might've taken longer to develop if they included the stomp slots up front, and they're not making any money while they do that, so a decision was made to just go forth as-is, and refine later.

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ty
The highest form of knowledge is empathy, for it requires us to suspend our egos and live in another's world. It requires profound, purpose‐larger‐than‐the‐self kind of understanding.

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Yes, stomp slot and tuner are features that will be coming and no you won't be waiting for TONEX v2 or AmpliTube 6 for those. The sample rate has been brought to the attention of the devs, and I personally asked why TONEX was at the bottom of the amp selection and I believe that can be moved to the top and then noticed others were thinking the same or were at very least confused by having to scroll. Thank you for the suggestions and I think you'll like the upcoming updates. For me the stomp slot is a big one since I don't have a real Klon and would like to just throw that into a stomp slot in AmpliTube 5 pronto.

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Peter - IK Multimedia wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 7:01 pm Yes, stomp slot and tuner are features that will be coming and no you won't be waiting for TONEX v2 or AmpliTube 6 for those. The sample rate has been brought to the attention of the devs, and I personally asked why TONEX was at the bottom of the amp selection and I believe that can be moved to the top and then noticed others were thinking the same or were at very least confused by having to scroll. Thank you for the suggestions and I think you'll like the upcoming updates. For me the stomp slot is a big one since I don't have a real Klon and would like to just throw that into a stomp slot in AmpliTube 5 pronto.
Great News- Thanks Peter :tu:
X32 Desk, i9 PC, S49MK2, Studio One, BWS, Live 12. PUSH 3 SA, Osmose, Summit, Pro 3, Prophet8, Syntakt, Digitone, Drumlogue, OP1-F, Eurorack, TD27 Drums, Nord Drum3P, Guitars, Basses, Amps and of course lots of pedals!

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Peter - IK Multimedia wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 7:01 pm Yes, stomp slot and tuner are features that will be coming and no you won't be waiting for TONEX v2 or AmpliTube 6 for those. The sample rate has been brought to the attention of the devs, and I personally asked why TONEX was at the bottom of the amp selection and I believe that can be moved to the top and then noticed others were thinking the same or were at very least confused by having to scroll. Thank you for the suggestions and I think you'll like the upcoming updates. For me the stomp slot is a big one since I don't have a real Klon and would like to just throw that into a stomp slot in AmpliTube 5 pronto.
Great news indeed! But please don't limit us to one stomp in ToneX (or Amplitube). Not uncommon to stack 2 OD's, or a OD into a fuzz, then even follow that up with an EQ in the chain. So a few slots would be very welcome.

Also, would also like some little quality of life workflow improvements in the capture process. There are a few extra clicks that don't need to be there. For instance, when I create a model, I select the routing, then perform the capture and click Next (would be great if it just auto-advanced), then I select Default or Advanced for the training and click Next, then I have to click Start to actually start training the model (why not just start upon clicking Next on the prior screen), then I review the routing again (why?) with no action to take here other than click Next, then I listen to the model...

That all could be streamlined with fewer clicks. I think you could define the Training model type upfront, then have it automatically go from Capture to Training with no additional clicking. Because these processes can take some time, the more that happens automatically the better. You don't want users walking away at the capture step and then coming back to find they need to do the training.

And of course, the ability to import/export Tone Captures locally! That's sorely missing. For now, I'll just flood ToneNET with captures like I've been doing, but I'd like to be able to just make some for myself and move them from PC to PC without sharing with the world.

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Funkybot's Evil Twin wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 5:50 pm
machinesworking wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 5:27 pm I can't think of any rational reason they would think it out or design it with that limitation, without it being a technical challenge they're not through working out. :shrug:
Sorry if I came off a little strong there. I didn't take offense. Was really just clarifying that I've seen this type of thing done and don't think it was a mistake. No worries. :hug:

I honestly think it's the same type of thing you see more and more of these days: companies are rushing to get a product out quickly, knowing they can improve the software later on. It's all part of Agile software development. I don't think there was any big technical limitation or anything of the sort, just more of a "we started development before thinking through all every use case and/or built for the most common use-case, then released the minimum viable product". Now, they'll improve it in future iterations. It's a way to maximize profits in the short-term. You jump right into development, get out the bare minimum (it's ironic but not unintentional that "Minimal Viable Product" is abbreviated as MVP), then iterate to improve, all while raking in the bucks.

The traditional software development cycle would've likely meant slower turnaround with requirements/use-cases/user stories gathered up front, analyzed, then software developed to meet those requirements, tested at the end, then finally released. Nowadays more and more comapnies are using a model where you jump right into development, test as you go, release as soon as you have something to show, then improve later (commonly known as "Agile development").

I think that's primarily what happened here. Might've taken longer to develop if they included the stomp slots up front, and they're not making any money while they do that, so a decision was made to just go forth as-is, and refine later.
For sure we’re in agreement just slightly different guesses as to why, but in the end I’m guessing to make a stomp model you need amplification and right now they hadn’t developed the AI to remove it from the saturation the stomp gives in a way they’re 100% satisfied with, so as you’re saying they pushed it out and will fix it later like Peter just clarified. :)

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Peter - IK Multimedia wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 7:01 pm Yes, stomp slot and tuner are features that will be coming and no you won't be waiting for TONEX v2 or AmpliTube 6 for those. The sample rate has been brought to the attention of the devs, and I personally asked why TONEX was at the bottom of the amp selection and I believe that can be moved to the top and then noticed others were thinking the same or were at very least confused by having to scroll. Thank you for the suggestions and I think you'll like the upcoming updates. For me the stomp slot is a big one since I don't have a real Klon and would like to just throw that into a stomp slot in AmpliTube 5 pronto.
Thanks, Peter.

I'd really like to see the TONEX preset browser moved down to cover up the routing overview panel instead of covering the amp interface panel in AmpliTube, so it is more in line with how it looks in TONEX. Covering up the amp interface with the preset browser is pretty inconvenient when you're trying to construct the perfect tone.

Also, it would be nice if we could collapse the gear browser on the right in AmpliTube. You don't need to always see it, especially now that TONEX and the X-GEAR pedals have literally made everything else in AmpliTube obsolete.
THIS MUSIC HAS BEEN MIXED TO BE PLAYED LOUD SO TURN IT UP

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Funkybot's Evil Twin wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 5:50 pm I honestly think it's the same type of thing you see more and more of these days: companies are rushing to get a product out quickly, knowing they can improve the software later on. It's all part of Agile software development. I don't think there was any big technical limitation or anything of the sort, just more of a "we started development before thinking through all every use case and/or built for the most common use-case, then released the minimum viable product". Now, they'll improve it in future iterations. It's a way to maximize profits in the short-term. You jump right into development, get out the bare minimum (it's ironic but not unintentional that "Minimal Viable Product" is abbreviated as MVP), then iterate to improve, all while raking in the bucks.
It also helps with marketing. Keeps it in the KVR headlines. "We added a tuner!" "We added amps as stomps!"

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Uncle E wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 3:20 am
Funkybot's Evil Twin wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 5:50 pm I honestly think it's the same type of thing you see more and more of these days: companies are rushing to get a product out quickly, knowing they can improve the software later on. It's all part of Agile software development. I don't think there was any big technical limitation or anything of the sort, just more of a "we started development before thinking through all every use case and/or built for the most common use-case, then released the minimum viable product". Now, they'll improve it in future iterations. It's a way to maximize profits in the short-term. You jump right into development, get out the bare minimum (it's ironic but not unintentional that "Minimal Viable Product" is abbreviated as MVP), then iterate to improve, all while raking in the bucks.
It also helps with marketing. Keeps it in the KVR headlines. "We added a tuner!" "We added amps as stomps!"
"We added stomps as stomps!" :hihi:

I gotta say, for as much room for improvement as there is here, I'm totally loving making my own profiles. I'm like 50 Muff patches deep with more stomps and amps coming. Totally loving this. Why Overloud didn't release this 2 years ago is beyond me. But I'm thrilled making my own captures.

Also, I did get some weirdness with a capture earlier today where I took a Muff, captured it, and when it came time to audition the model, it sounded like there was some extra room tone added when I got to a certain range of the fretboard. Was bizarre. Low notes and power chords sounded good, but if I played a lead at a certain spot on the fretboard (around 7th-10th fret G and B strings), it was like some there were suddenly some early reflections in the tone. Something funky there. That was with the Default Training model.

So I kept the settings the same and switched to the Advanced training mode and the next run was good. So if you get some weirdness with really high gain sounds, definitely switch to Advanced training mode. Might be necessary for really high gain stuff.

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SLiC wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 11:51 am
A3ntar wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 3:33 am Downloaded the demo, didn't enjoy any single amp, deleted it a few hours later. BIG disappointment.

Unidimensional, weird fizz and un-authentic pick response. It may "sound" similar to a few of my amps but none of the feel is there.

I will keep on using my Neural DSP collection that sounds like nothing I own but still manages to sound fantastic.
Can't please everyone! I have A5, Scuffam, Helix Native etc and found Neural DSP to be my least favourite non real amp 'sounds' but other seem to like it. Probably as most of what I record is from my Blues Jnr and I have simple (and predominantly clean) taste!
I don't like all of Neural DSP stuff. I have bought 2 plugins that are my work horses:

Cleans: Cory Wong
Crunch/Vintage: Nolly

Haven't cared for their other offerings.

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machinesworking wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 3:09 pm That's not an error it's a decision. IMO I think it's because they're not able to predict perfectly how essentially two amps in a row are going to sound and they're making it difficult on purpose to set up. it's got to be something like that, it's not like these decisions get made randomly.
That doesn't make much sense to me. If an AI amp model can handle the output of a user's hardware distortion pedal (or an existing amplitube distortion pedal) then it should be able to take the output of an AI model equally well. It's just audio, nobody's expecting them to include the impedence effects.

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A3ntar wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 6:01 am
I don't like all of Neural DSP stuff. I have bought 2 plugins that are my work horses:

Cleans: Cory Wong
Crunch/Vintage: Nolly

Haven't cared for their other offerings.
I haven't tried the Cory Wong so I will give it a go...the iLok and cost has put me off in the past- HELIX Native had me covered for a long time and ended up being great vale after all the updates, but I guess even that is getti9ng long in the tooth now!
X32 Desk, i9 PC, S49MK2, Studio One, BWS, Live 12. PUSH 3 SA, Osmose, Summit, Pro 3, Prophet8, Syntakt, Digitone, Drumlogue, OP1-F, Eurorack, TD27 Drums, Nord Drum3P, Guitars, Basses, Amps and of course lots of pedals!

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