[Fixed in 4.4] Weird bug: latest "Spectral Suite" update not included in upgrade plan

[ghettosynth]

Call me an optimist, but what if Bitwig comes out with a solid update and a statement. It may be that they didn't make a statement yet for this reason, and didn't want to repeat the mistake of doing something admittedly half-assed (though now it seems they will be making one tomorrow, possibly because of the blowback). Hell it could even have been 5.0 and for all you know could turn out to be a stellar update. So, assuming that something along these lines does happen will all the ppl "threatening" to change their criteria for when/if they buy updates or even abandon bitwig or switch daws still stick to their crusade? Or are they going to declare some sort of tenuous victory? Just curious how all the folks are going to react if there is some positive news, since they've been acting like hell froze over.

The biggest difference is as of now anyway Ableton has never pulled anything like this, they introduced a batch of AAS instruments as part of their Suite and made two tiers for Live. They screwed up Max integration for a while, but that's pretty solid now.

Yeah, I'm going to push back a bit on that. They screwed up Max integration pretty seriously in terms of cost and some users spent a lot more on that than this spectrum tools thing costs. I'm not defending Bitwig here, I'm saying that Ableton and Cycling 74 took a few turns of the wheel before the costs were reasonable. The cost of entry is a LOT lower now than it was in the early days. It wasn't perceived like the Bitwig thing though because Ableton didn't promise anything that they later went back on.

[SLiC]

Venus Theory has posted this over at VI Control (I hope I'm not upsetting anyone by reposting.)
https://twitter.com/user/status/1579557547719417856

What a shame

[_leras]

We're almost getting to a 100 pages on this thread and still nothing, that's nice of you Bitwig.

People should have been off enjoying the weekend and making music in Bitwig - instead of arguing on the internet about it.

[pdxindy]

Call me an optimist, but what if Bitwig comes out with a solid update and a statement. It may be that they didn't make a statement yet for this reason, and didn't want to repeat the mistake of doing something admittedly half-assed (though now it seems they will be making one tomorrow, possibly because of the blowback). Hell it could even have been 5.0 and for all you know could turn out to be a stellar update. So, assuming that something along these lines does happen will all the ppl "threatening" to change their criteria for when/if they buy updates or even abandon bitwig or switch daws still stick to their crusade? Or are they going to declare some sort of tenuous victory? Just curious how all the folks are going to react if there is some positive news, since they've been acting like hell froze over.

The biggest difference is as of now anyway Ableton has never pulled anything like this, they introduced a batch of AAS instruments as part of their Suite and made two tiers for Live. They screwed up Max integration for a while, but that's pretty solid now.

Yeah, I'm going to push back a bit on that. They screwed up Max integration pretty seriously in terms of cost and some users spent a lot more on that than this spectrum tools thing costs. I'm not defending Bitwig here, I'm saying that Ableton and Cycling 74 took a few turns of the wheel before the costs were reasonable. The cost of entry is a LOT lower now than it was in the early days. It wasn't perceived like the Bitwig thing though because Ableton didn't promise anything that they later went back on.

There was also the whole debacle with Live 8 being so bug-ridden it was hardly useable. There was so much user outcry that Ableton was forced to declare that they were halting development for a year to focus solely on fixing bugs.

From my perspective as a user, that was far more troublesome (unable to use the software I had purchased without constant crashes) than this situation with Bitwig.

[machinesworking]

The update plan is fine. If anything it is better than the alternative a paid upgrade that will include point update - as if you buy - or even active - mid cycle - you get a whole years updates, which could include a major version.

They have botched the spectral plugs announcement though - as they didn't properly consider existing upgrade plans.

The good news is that if they don't feel they need this as a point update - then they must have a decent amount of good things in the pipeline.

And you are corrrect - Bitwig IS more fun to work in than other DAWs.

IMO the Update Plan is why they're in this mess. Every other DAW almost announces a slew of new features every couple years, the end user then decides whether to update or not. They then usually have another smaller round of features added halfway through upgrade cycles, that encourage people to upgrade who have not. Not a soul gets mad if they introduce a product a year later after an upgrade cycle that is an add on, it was never promised in that upgrade, and all free updates mid upgrade cycles are bonuses.

Case in point, Ableton introduced Sampler, the big brother to Simpler which was free in Live. They charged for it, and later Suite was introduced. No one thought too much of it, because it was never promised or assumed that all Live content would be included in Live. No "future updates" were ever mentioned.

Bitwigs model of an Update Plan that included all embedded plug ins until now is 100% why there is backlash. The premise that most people had was that plug ins that were developed specifically for Bitwig were included in the Plan, and there was years of physical software development proof that this was so. Apparently it's not, and this is where we all sit, those like you that defend this action, and those of us who are upset, and waiting for their response.

IMO the most rational response is to rethink the Update Plan and how this all works, there are dozens of people responding that they will now purchase the Update Plan only when there is sufficient new features already introduced, i.e. they're going to treat the Update Plan like an Upgrade cycle, because they feel cheated and don't want to just give Bitwig money up front for promises of future plug ins, especially after plug ins were introduced without warning they spent development time on that are not part of the Plan. This is absolutely NOT what Bitwig wants! They're trying to generate more revenue, period, and the response to the change in the Update Plane is going to zero sum their attempt, especially adding in the people who stop using and updating Bitwig altogether.

TL;DR - The main crux of this is the Update Plan is unique, and probably for good reason, look how it's turning out for Bitwig.

[pdxindy]

Case in point, Ableton introduced Sampler, the big brother to Simpler which was free in Live. They charged for it, and later Suite was introduced. No one thought too much of it, because it was never promised or assumed that all Live content would be included in Live. No "future updates" were ever mentioned.

I used to frequent the Ableton forum and there were sh!tstorms worse than this one over there. Their update model did not prevent that.

[_leras]

EDIT: In case not 100% obvious, when I said "they did a U-He giveaway (presumably with some form of compensation paid to U-He)" I did not mean to imply I think U-He has anything to do with all this. I truly hope he received a big pile of cash for letting bitwig give away licenses to their customers. I just meant that Bitwig wanted to do this so badly that they were willing to pay to do it (e.g., cash payment to U-He, or in exchange for services, or equity in Bitwig, or Bitwig's agreement to support CLAP ... I have no idea, but I'm sure they gave up something!)

No limits to the mudslinging it seems.

The community of people who build these fantastic music tools should be lauded. Their time, inspiration and effort is absolutely a gift to the world.

Yet, people take the possibility of missing out on a pretty cheap spectral tool like someone has done them a grave injustice, instead of treating it like the human error/misjudgment that it clearly is.

Well, not me. I still love Bitwig for making music. Yesterday, keeping a file numbering system e.g. xxxx_v1_01 and Bitwigs great handling of multiple open projects allowed me to seamlessly go back and take parts and setting from an older version.

Want to transfer a complete effect chain. Ctrl + G, save preset, then just open in the new version. just a small example of why Bitwig is sooo good.

[Held]

There was also the whole debacle with Live 8 being so bug-ridden it was hardly useable. There was so much user outcry that Ableton was forced to declare that they were halting development for a year to focus solely on fixing bugs.

From my perspective as a user, that was far more troublesome (unable to use the software I had purchased without constant crashes) than this situation with Bitwig.

Didn't they offer a trial for the new version you could have tested before buying?

[_leras]

Can't blame them. I'm starting to see why Gol was such an ass to people on the IL forums.

I can, I never had to pick up IL's slack and I hope they read this and step up.
[/quote]
Hey, make me a moderator. I'll deal with this bunch of whingers in short order.

[tempsperdu]

Bitwigs model of an Update Plan that included all embedded plug ins until now is 100% why there is backlash. The premise that most people had was that plug ins that were developed specifically for Bitwig were included in the Plan, and there was years of physical software development proof that this was so. Apparently it's not, and this is where we all sit, those like you that defend this action, and those of us who are upset, and waiting for their response.

It's not the plan itself that is the problem, as I've said elsewhere, most were fine with it till this. This manoeuvre effectively scotches the update plan by not adhering to it in the way that was both implied and advertised. That is why people are so upset.
It was so totally avoidable.

[machinesworking]

Yeah, I'm going to push back a bit on that. They screwed up Max integration pretty seriously in terms of cost and some users spent a lot more on that than this spectrum tools thing costs. I'm not defending Bitwig here, I'm saying that Ableton and Cycling 74 took a few turns of the wheel before the costs were reasonable. The cost of entry is a LOT lower now than it was in the early days. It wasn't perceived like the Bitwig thing though because Ableton didn't promise anything that they later went back on.

There was also the whole debacle with Live 8 being so bug-ridden it was hardly useable. There was so much user outcry that Ableton was forced to declare that they were halting development for a year to focus solely on fixing bugs.

From my perspective as a user, that was far more troublesome (unable to use the software I had purchased without constant crashes) than this situation with Bitwig.

I remember using the 8 beta, (they had closed, but easily joined betas back then), and being really glad I did. There were tons of people who were still high on Line as this new DAW that was so different (kinda like the Bitwig high), and they all claimed the beta was stable. I was one of maybe two people who were wondering what everyone was smoking? I shouted about it on their forums, and everyone acted like I was a Debbie Downer, then they all started complaining. IMO replying on fanboy users for betas can be eh? problematic.Needless to say Live 8 was my first version in years where I waited over a year before upgrading.

None of that is about shifty business practices though, bugs are not fun, even Bitwig has plenty of graphical bugs here, and a lot of them are freaking annoying to try to describe or tell Bitwig about, because there's not rhyme or reason to them, so I don't know when/if they ever 100% go away. Nothing crippling just odd glitches.

Live Suite is too expensive up front, I would never argue against that statement. I didn't buy it for a couple years, until someone sold a copy for cheap used. [Side note, it's that period that Bitwig folks left Ableton, it's partially why they exist I would bet]

[pekbro]

It's just a particularly ugly DAW with mostly crappy fx in it (imo). Pay for it, or use something else simple...

[machinesworking]

Bitwigs model of an Update Plan that included all embedded plug ins until now is 100% why there is backlash. The premise that most people had was that plug ins that were developed specifically for Bitwig were included in the Plan, and there was years of physical software development proof that this was so. Apparently it's not, and this is where we all sit, those like you that defend this action, and those of us who are upset, and waiting for their response.

It's not the plan itself that is the problem, as I've said elsewhere, most were fine with it till this. This manoeuvre effectively scotches the update plan by not adhering to it in the way that was both implied and advertised. That is why people are so upset.
It was so totally avoidable.

There was no way for them to sell add ons separately from the Plan, or introduce that concept without this fiasco, that's why it's the problem. Again, with a regular upgrade cycle you are handed mostly up front what you will get for your money, no one expects that all plug ins are included, because that's not what you paid for, you're not paying for vaporware, you're paying for improvements and plug ins they present you with up front.

I'm not understanding why this is so hard for people to grasp? There was no way to roll out a separate paid embedded plug in suite for Bitwig without ticking off a lot of people when your Update Plan has ALWAYS included all plug ins and improvements previously. Had they used a traditional model, then no one would assume that new products introduced after their payment for the upgrade would be included.

[ollie.rollover]

Who’s gonna get the first post on page 100?!?

[_leras]

It's a shame so many people are basically wanting Bitwig to fail over this. It's amazing really, in a very disappointing negative, burn it down, view of the world.

I don't see hardly anyone wanting Bitwig to fail, I see people wanting to let Bitwig know (in the only way that companies respond, financially) , that they are not going to go along with this move.

Imagine for a minute being this poster. You bought Bitwig after seeing them hand every embedded plug in they made into Bitwigs Update Plan, you're, not going to take this lightly. It's got to feel like a swindle, no matter how it's sold.

Well just above you said you were happy for them to lose money, which immediately gives less funds to add more features and improve etc. Or did you just mean that you'd like them all to be forced to take pay cuts? Pretty mean spirited.

Well... as an upgrade plan owner it would be better for this to have been included - and for them at least to have clearly communicated that going forwards they would make some separate bundles.

The difference is I'm willing to give them a chance to correct this, and also, I think they have delivered consistently and with value in their updates - so I see no reason to think that they would stop doing that.

I did email them about this - politely.