Is the Virtual Instrument era over?

VST, AU, AAX, CLAP, etc. Plugin Virtual Instruments Discussion
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Chr!s wrote: Wed Oct 26, 2022 7:43 amI'd invite you over sometime to fire up any of my orchestral libraries, or solo instruments like say the Violin from Ancient Era: Persia and let's just say: If you can make that sound like a realistic, decent-sounding, string performance without having to touch CC1, 11, 2 for vibrato control, another for speed control, another for portamento control, and then keyswitches to add ornamention, change articulations, etc.
The mistake you're making is to think that doing that requires you to "screw around" with MIDI CCs. I mean, maybe it does for that specific library but in every VST host I've ever use, I wouldn't have a clue what MIDI CCs are doing what. You assign something to your Mod Wheel or a macro knob or use MIDI learn. What CC it is never comes up and the process is very simple/straightforward.
jamcat wrote: Wed Oct 26, 2022 9:12 amYeah, I never understood that either. What are they doing, close miking a symphony orchestra? (Which would fall under “doing it wrong.”)
I've had discussions here wiwth people who think you need to have every instrument in an orchestra on a separate track, with it's own instrument. It's madness.
_leras wrote: Wed Oct 26, 2022 1:47 pmFor drums - you might have two kits that each have some layered samples or some fx hits, all rendered out on individual tracks.
It's not the what, it's the why and I see no reason to do it that way, no advantage. My drums are all on a singlel stereo track most of the time. Sometimes I might use two different instruments for drums, then I'll have two channels in the mixer, but that's the max I'll bother with these days. And teh thing is, if I compare to older mixes, where I used multi-outs from Battery, the drums sound better now. There is so much control over individual samples in a drum instrument like Battery, that you can do all your sound shaping there, you don't need to bother with multi-outs.
For vocals, with modern production this could again be quite simple. Main vocals layered, ad lib effects could very easily be ten tracks, and these could be separated into different sets of tracks for different verse chorus, and that's not even counting if you were then to be doing vocal effect where you're chopping up a vocal into different samples and arranging each on their own track.
Again, why? You're just making things far more complicated than they need to be, for zero benefit. You ight record things that way but when you're mixing, it makes sense to combine things into something more manageable. In Studio One, you can pretty much treat each audio clip like it's in a separate channel anyway, it doesn't actually need to be in a separate channel
I mean - not everyone needs to do this, but there are definitely valid reasons for producing this way.
Like what? I'm not seeing it. OK, you might have to make some minor compromises to combine a whole lot of things into one track but, in my experience, those compromises are well worth it, because they allow you to do a better job in the end.
And they wouldn't all be playing at once.
But they are still making your Mixer unwieldy, forcing you to scroll around and all that kind of shit that makes it harder to do a good job.
vurt wrote: Wed Oct 26, 2022 2:13 pmalso , the beatles, while they may have used 4/8/16 track recorders, there was a fair bit of mixing down and rerecording over tracks, meaning they were in essence using more tracks.
No reason we can't be doing the same. There is no reason that things you might have to record separately need to remain in a separate track throughout the process.
SamDi wrote: Wed Oct 26, 2022 4:42 pm How many tracks would you need for that?

or that?
I dunno, a dozen or so, maybe. I could probably cull 'em to 8 or 9.
Artists, who use regularly over 100 tracks (proven - MDK has a demo track, delivered with FL Studio, and for Infected Mushroom, there is a video on YT, where they tell, that they have many, many tracks in each project) and doing it very right (not to say they are of the best IMO).
Not from where I'm sitting, especially that IM track, which isn't at all complex. And just because they choose to do it that way, doesn't make it the best way or the correct way. If they'd done it with 10 tracks, they might have got it done in half the time, and it may have turned out better, but it would make the YT video look a bit boring. My own experience tells me that is very likely.
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tony10000 wrote: Wed Oct 26, 2022 6:14 pmHumor me...provide the names of the new instruments that you see that aren't sample players.
You can't look at one week, or one month, and see a trend. As I pointed out the other day, look at the announcements for any given month for every year and the onslaught has been relentless for 15 years now, with absolutely no sign of slowing down. And, as I explained, even if the pace of new instruments does slow, it only means that the market has matured, that devs have finally been able to deliver what they set out to deliver 10 years ago.

If we were witnessing a downturn, I believe we'd be seeing more frantic releases and updates, not less. After all, if people stop buying your latest product, the best way to boost sales is to release a new product. But if sales are humming along nicely, you can keep that new thing in your back pocket for a while, bring it out when you need it.
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The music industry is essentially dead.

Economic slowdown.

Cost of development crisis - ( Cost of living, electricity )

COVID

War on the eastern front with Russia.
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BONES wrote: Wed Oct 26, 2022 11:17 pm
Chr!s wrote: Wed Oct 26, 2022 7:43 amI'd invite you over sometime to fire up any of my orchestral libraries, or solo instruments like say the Violin from Ancient Era: Persia and let's just say: If you can make that sound like a realistic, decent-sounding, string performance without having to touch CC1, 11, 2 for vibrato control, another for speed control, another for portamento control, and then keyswitches to add ornamention, change articulations, etc.
The mistake you're making is to think that doing that requires you to "screw around" with MIDI CCs. I mean, maybe it does for that specific library but in every VST host I've ever use, I wouldn't have a clue what MIDI CCs are doing what. You assign something to your Mod Wheel or a macro knob or use MIDI learn. What CC it is never comes up and the process is very simple/straightforward.
...right. I'm not sure if you just don't understand what these instruments do or what the case is, but

The point was and remains that you have to automate all these parameters regardless if you want to get the most out of these Virtual Instruments. MIDI learn does not negate that.

It is also the case that some libraries don't even allow MIDI Learn, and vital controls are buried somewhere in some CC that you have to go searching for in the manual. For example, a choir library that I have bizarrely has MIDI CC 72 programmed to male voice dynamics, and 73 to female, which exceeds the amount of faders I already have programmed on my controller, so I need to switch over to a preset custom made for that one library.

Then as I said, there is the matter of key switches or being forced to layer samples. You are not going to get a realistic solo flute or violin performance by just playing a legato patch or playing it like back in the Roland Rompler days. You are going to need as much control over articulation, ornamentation, expression and dynamics, vibrato speed, etc. There is no way I can memorize by heart all of the keyswitches for even just one instrument in the Era libraries; there are often at least 3 different types of mordents triggered via keyswitch, so I'm forced to keep looking at the GUI again to know what I'm triggering, which I can't easily do in real-time, either.

Perhaps for you doing metal and electronic music or something, these things aren't an issue — but they absolutely are if you are serious about orchestral music or emulating other acoustic ensembles with samples and it can quickly become very time-consuming and uninspiring, and my point is that technologies which alleviate this are the way forward for virtual instruments and would absolutely make money.

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Chr!s wrote: Thu Oct 27, 2022 3:07 amThe point was and remains that you have to automate all these parameters regardless if you want to get the most out of these Virtual Instruments. MIDI learn does not negate that.
Well, of course, just as you have to get the notes into the piano roll and get the right sounds in the first place. It's all part of the process, and I don't even think it's the hardest part. I certainly don't see how that equates to "screwing around with MIDI CCs".
It is also the case that some libraries don't even allow MIDI Learn, and vital controls are buried somewhere in some CC that you have to go searching for in the manual. For example, a choir library that I have bizarrely has MIDI CC 72 programmed to male voice dynamics, and 73 to female, which exceeds the amount of faders I already have programmed on my controller, so I need to switch over to a preset custom made for that one library.
Switching presets is such an effort.
Then as I said, there is the matter of key switches or being forced to layer samples. You are not going to get a realistic solo flute or violin performance by just playing a legato patch or playing it like back in the Roland Rompler days.
So why try? All you really need is something that the listener will recognise as a flute. Like so many people around here, you seem to be overthinking everything and making yourself miserable in the process. But if it really is so vitally important that it sounds authentic, go and hire symphony orchestra like a normal person and stop whining about how hard it is to cheat it.
Perhaps for you doing metal and electronic music or something, these things aren't an issue — but they absolutely are if you are serious about orchestral music
But if you really were serious, wouldn't you do as I suggested and hire an actual orchestra?
my point is that technologies which alleviate this are the way forward for virtual instruments and would absolutely make money.
I'd suggest your use-case is probably less than one in one thousand and that ain't gonna make anyone any money.
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AI will take care of a lot of that. And the day that happens will be the deaths of many musicians' and composers' careers. See commercial artists.

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BONES wrote: Thu Oct 27, 2022 3:49 amSo why try? All you really need is something that the listener will recognise as a flute. Like so many people around here, you seem to be overthinking everything and making yourself miserable in the process. But if it really is so vitally important that it sounds authentic, go and hire symphony orchestra like a normal person and stop whining about how hard it is to cheat it.

This is going to be my last post to you since it's obvious that you're a dick, honestly.

Some of us have standards and yet don't have 10s of thousands to hire a Symphony Orchestra every single time we want to create orchestral music and don't want to settle with a JV-1080 flute patch and no, audiences today generally don't either. The first step was that samples allowed us to surpass that.

The next step, and one that there there has been little in the way of effort to make, is to improve their playability and usability. But as I said, there are indeed some ongoing attempts, and I responded to the OP by saying I believe that will be the new Era of Virtual Instruments.

Why you feel the need to be a dick about this, I'm not sure.
BONES wrote: Thu Oct 27, 2022 3:49 amBut if you really were serious, wouldn't you do as I suggested and hire an actual orchestra
Did I ever say that I haven't? Are you going to pay upward of 10k every time, though?

I do hire live players in select situations. That doesn't invalidate my point about VI's, however.
BONES wrote: Thu Oct 27, 2022 3:49 amI'd suggest your use-case is probably less than one in one thousand and that ain't gonna make anyone any money.
Yeah, that's why companies like Spitfire, Native Instruments and Orchestral Tools are multi-million-dollar companies. :roll:

Sorry, but it's painfully obvious that despite allegedly having 40 years experience in music, you're really quite ignorant about what is, outside of the electronic music sphere, referred to as "virtual instruments".

So maybe try being a bit more humble?

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The misquote above is hilarious 😆

It’s like reading an argument between bones and somebody else but bones playing the role off the other person, and the other person doing a bones, if you get my drift.

Edit; boo , it’s been corrected. Should have left it alone ;)
I lost my heart in Cap de Creus

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First Absynth...now these:


2022-10-27_0-58-24.jpg
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Chr!s wrote: Thu Oct 27, 2022 4:51 am So maybe try being a bit more humble?
LOL!

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tony10000 wrote: Thu Oct 27, 2022 5:00 am First Absynth...now these:



2022-10-27_0-58-24.jpg
And the common link is:

https://audioxpress.com/news/native-ins ... -soundwide

Looks like big companies funded by venture capitalists and "investment partners" will hasten the demise of virtual instruments. Urs alluded to this in his post.

An interesting quote from the article:

"Soundwide’s mission is described as "to make music and audio creation a more joyful and inspiring experience for creators everywhere by helping them to find, and stay in, their creative flow," and "to inspire and empower creators to express themselves and reimagine the future of sound." Towards those goals, it becomes clear that Soundwide will apply its engineering capabilities across integrated software and hardware, AI and machine learning, cloud, and more."

Note the phrase: "integrated software and hardware, AI and machine learning, cloud..." That does not sound like virtual instruments (plug ins), does it? Hmmmm....

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Hasten the demise of VI? Pulease, absolute nonsense.

Urs said that VCs would hasten the DEMISE OF VIs? You’re shitting me, really?
I lost my heart in Cap de Creus

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revvy wrote: Thu Oct 27, 2022 5:23 am Hasten the demise of VI? Pulease, absolute nonsense.

Urs said that VCs would hasten the DEMISE OF VIs? You’re shitting me, really?
Urs' comment:

"My opinion is that currently we see a backslap from the previous "gold rush". Even before the pandemic, some companies got boosted with stupid amounts of venture capital, often for something that's IMHO not viable (like, the subscription fad). So now these companies shrink back or consolidate in other forms. So yeah, there's vacuum as result of greed and fast money, reflected by fewer releases and stagnation of very visible brands.

"However, the way I see it, companies like Tone2 or us who refused to play those silly games will simply continue, and if the market declines, we have that vacuum to fill as a buffer. If I wasn't under NDA I could give an astonishing example of how those imploding companies gasp for air and literally offer us to fill the void they left."

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tony10000 wrote: Thu Oct 27, 2022 5:27 am
revvy wrote: Thu Oct 27, 2022 5:23 am Hasten the demise of VI? Pulease, absolute nonsense.

Urs said that VCs would hasten the DEMISE OF VIs? You’re shitting me, really?
Urs' comment:

"My opinion is that currently we see a backslap from the previous "gold rush". Even before the pandemic, some companies got boosted with stupid amounts of venture capital, often for something that's IMHO not viable (like, the subscription fad). So now these companies shrink back or consolidate in other forms. So yeah, there's vacuum as result of greed and fast money, reflected by fewer releases and stagnation of very visible brands.

"However, the way I see it, companies like Tone2 or us who refused to play those silly games will simply continue, and if the market declines, we have that vacuum to fill as a buffer. If I wasn't under NDA I could give an astonishing example of how those imploding companies gasp for air and literally offer us to fill the void they left."
I see. You completely misinterpreted what he said. Thanks for sharing the actual quote.

VIs are not disappearing as they are not being replaced by anything.

Maybe the market is saturated so some companies will disappear. Maybe austerity and world problems will mean fewer hobbyists (for a while) spending cash on virtual toys.

But ‘demise of VIs?’ Nope.
I lost my heart in Cap de Creus

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revvy wrote: Thu Oct 27, 2022 5:41 am
tony10000 wrote: Thu Oct 27, 2022 5:27 am
revvy wrote: Thu Oct 27, 2022 5:23 am Hasten the demise of VI? Pulease, absolute nonsense.

Urs said that VCs would hasten the DEMISE OF VIs? You’re shitting me, really?
Urs' comment:

"My opinion is that currently we see a backslap from the previous "gold rush". Even before the pandemic, some companies got boosted with stupid amounts of venture capital, often for something that's IMHO not viable (like, the subscription fad). So now these companies shrink back or consolidate in other forms. So yeah, there's vacuum as result of greed and fast money, reflected by fewer releases and stagnation of very visible brands.

"However, the way I see it, companies like Tone2 or us who refused to play those silly games will simply continue, and if the market declines, we have that vacuum to fill as a buffer. If I wasn't under NDA I could give an astonishing example of how those imploding companies gasp for air and literally offer us to fill the void they left."
I see. You completely misinterpreted what he said. Thanks for sharing the actual quote.

VIs are not disappearing as they are not being replaced by anything.

Maybe the market is saturated so some companies will disappear. Maybe austerity and world problems will mean fewer hobbyists (for a while) spending cash on virtual toys.

But ‘demise of VIs?’ Nope.
This ^

Honestly, Tony, it's starting to appear that you are being purposefully myopic just to continue this zombie thread's stumbling gait. You can't list out your professional pedigree and then so obviously purposefully misinterpret such a plainly written quote. It's just gauche. Please. Stop. I can't even bring myself to type the equally obvious and valid counter. It's just dumb.

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